Justice League (2017/2021)

[Pirate Athos]

What I meant about 1:1 ratio was that was the first Avengers movie and this was Snyders original vision for Justice League. Justice League was fast-tracked to be the DCEU's Avengers, no?

No. It wasn't fast tracked. Snyder planned to do things differently then MCU. JL was to be the third film of the series and then spinoff individual movies.
Also it wasnt meant to be DCEU's Avengers. It was meant to be a DCEU movie based on a DC Comic. Just like Avenger's is a MCU movie based on a Marvel comic.

I've seen every other DECU movie now, so I think i'm allowed to make a judgement. Sure, i've heard things are a bit more comedic in the Snyder Cut, which is great, but it doesn't change every other Snyder DCEU movie.

The worst part is I don’t think they need to be unrelatable just because they’re god-like. It’s the way the characters are written. I read that statement as you making a judgment call on a movie you haven't seen. Is it not intended to be a statement on ZSJL?

Why are you being so defensive? Sure, I like the MCU, but I ALSO like DC. What I DON'T like is the 2013-2017 DCEU. Shazam, Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman are probably my favorite films. I feel like the DCEU is trending in the right direction right now and I really just don't want the success of this to impact actual *plans* going forward.

I didn't realize engaging in a discussion and sharing a POV different then yours was being defensive.

I like all DC films, some more then others. Just like (till WV) I've liked all MCU, some more then others. I don't know why we need to compare what is essentially apples and oranges. It's like comparing Star Trek and Star Wars they are two different things.

DC's current approach of multiverse movies that can be connected or not connected is something that I like. It means we can get more Snyderverse, while also getting movies unconnected to it. That is a very exciting idea. It let's creators experiment with characters, like they did in Joker, without having to worry about how it will impact a future Batman project. Most importantly it's different from what the MCU is doing.

 

[Nick]

No. It wasn't fast tracked. Snyder planned to do things differently then MCU. JL was to be the third film of the series and then spinoff individual movies.
Also it wasnt meant to be DCEU's Avengers. It was meant to be a DCEU movie based on a DC Comic. Just like Avenger's is a MCU movie based on a Marvel comic.

Okay, I didn't know it was "planned". And i'm not stupid. Obviously Justice League is a DC property/comic. Again, I was talking metaphorically. Chill out.

The worst part is I don’t think they need to be unrelatable just because they’re god-like. It’s the way the characters are written. I read that statement as you making a judgment call on a movie you haven't seen. Is it not intended to be a statement on ZSJL?

It is not a statement on ZSJL, just my general opinion, mostly from seeing BvS. I've seen all except ZSJL, which I meant to watch last night, (well, I haven't actually seen the original Justice League and I plan to keep it that way until AFTER I see ZSJL so I go into ZSJL without any bias at all). Man of Steel was actually pretty decent everything being equal. I just feel like maybe Snyder had good movies that he made, but Warner Brothers really screwed up somewhere along the line and that's what threw the beginning of the DCEU off I guess.

I didn't realize engaging in a discussion and sharing a POV different then yours was being defensive.

I like all DC films, some more then others. Just like (till WV) I've liked all MCU, some more then others. I don't know why we need to compare what is essentially apples and oranges. It's like comparing Star Trek and Star Wars they are two different things.

DC's current approach of multiverse movies that can be connected or not connected is something that I like. It means we can get more Snyderverse, while also getting movies unconnected to it. That is a very exciting idea. It let's creators experiment with characters, like they did in Joker, without having to worry about how it will impact a future Batman project. Most importantly it's different from what the MCU is doing.

It's my bad. Tone is hard to read over text.

I disagree though, as I don't consider the Joker part of the DCEU, I don't consider The Batman part of the DCEU, and neither does WB. The main DCEU is rumored to actually be launching a multiverse soon in The Flash movie (meaning there is no multiverse yet), which is why I tend to believe that, and why I think a Snyderverse would just be going backwards. The WarnerMedia CEO also said this today:

I appreciate that they love Zack’s work and we are very thankful for his many contributions to DC. We’re just so happy that he could bring his cut of the “Justice League” to life because that wasn’t in the plan until about a year ago. With that comes the completion of his trilogy. We’re very happy we’ve done this, but we’re very excited about the plans we have for all the multi-dimensional DC characters that are being developed right now.

WB Says No DCEU SnyderVerse Future Plans Despite Justice League Popularity

There are no plans to continue the SnyderVerse.

screenrant.com

 

[Pirate Athos]

I just feel like maybe Snyder had good movies that he made, but Warner Brothers really screwed up somewhere along the line and that's what threw the beginning of the DCEU off I guess.

WB is the main culprit here. They changed their minds and lost faith in Snyder's version and wanted a MCU clone. End of the day their interference just ruined everything. Which is why I'm glad the Snyder version has finally been made. I do encourage you to watch the Wheadon version after you see the Snyder one. At the very least it shows how Studio interference will ruin a movie franchise.

I disagree though, as I don't consider the Joker part of the DCEU, I don't consider The Batman part of the DCEU, and neither does WB. The main DCEU is rumored to actually be launching a multiverse soon in The Flash movie (meaning there is no multiverse yet), which is why I tend to believe that, and why I think a Snyderverse would just be going backwards. The WarnerMedia CEO also said this today:

I appreciate that they love Zack’s work and we are very thankful for his many contributions to DC. We’re just so happy that he could bring his cut of the “Justice League” to life because that wasn’t in the plan until about a year ago. With that comes the completion of his trilogy. We’re very happy we’ve done this, but we’re very excited about the plans we have for all the multi-dimensional DC characters that are being developed right now.

WB Says No DCEU SnyderVerse Future Plans Despite Justice League Popularity

There are no plans to continue the SnyderVerse.

screenrant.com

The DC DCEU multiverse was established on the CW TV shows with the Crisis on Infinite Earths event. Ezra Miller's Flash had a appearance in it, as did every other DC movie and TV property that was made before it aired. So they are all already connected. in ZSJL Steppenwolf even drops the word multiverse.

As for what Warner Media says....they also adamantly said the Snyder Cut doesn't exist, and later that it would never be released, they have a problem with telling the truth, so when a exec makes a blanket statement like that, I don't believe it. What we are seeing with yesterdays statement is Old Hollywood circling the wagons against the success of Streaming, downplaying Ray fisher's claims, and protecting their power and control over films.

They were quick to talk about WW84 success on streaming, yet are silent on the metrics for ZSJL, instead they released that statement.

I've been following all the drama over ZSJL for a while now, I just find it really fascinating the lies, coverups, mistreatment of actors and crew, all the dirty laundry that came out about execs, producers, writers, and the downfall of Whedon, it was like watching a real life soap opera. Even if we never see another Snyderverse film, I hope one day we get a documentary on everything that went down with the franchise.

 

[Nick]

As for what Warner Media says....they also adamantly said the Snyder Cut doesn't exist, and later that it would never be released, they have a problem with telling the truth, so when a exec makes a blanket statement like that, I don't believe it. What we are seeing with yesterdays statement is Old Hollywood circling the wagons against the success of Streaming, downplaying Ray fisher's claims, and protecting their power and control over films.

They were quick to talk about WW84 success on streaming, yet are silent on the metrics for ZSJL, instead they released that statement.

I've been following all the drama over ZSJL for a while now, I just find it really fascinating the lies, coverups, mistreatment of actors and crew, all the dirty laundry that came out about execs, producers, writers, and the downfall of Whedon, it was like watching a real life soap opera. Even if we never see another Snyderverse film, I hope one day we get a documentary on everything that went down with the franchise.

As the for SnyderCut... it kinda didn't exist. There was footage shot, but Visual effects weren't done and they even had to do reshoots for the ZSJL version. That's not a movie that exists. That's a half-finished project sitting on the shelf that cost them $70M to finish. Supposedly there was conversation to put it out as it was by Snyder said no because he didn't want to be judged on an unfinished product - one that would've been without finished CGI.

And don't worry about them being silent about ZSJL, since this was a worldwide release (but HBOMax isn't worldwide itself), supposedly they are working on compiling data to make it sound extremely impressive.

And I get that some things with the CW connect, obviously Ezra Miller being a big part of that. But Agents of Shield had a lot of things that connected to the MCU and none of it really mattered. They had characters from the MCU that came onto AoS and they basically don't count that show as canon. My point is, I think DC/WB considers the CW stuff as it's own universe and while the shows may reference things that happen in the movies, the movies ignore the shows. Even with Ezra Miller being Flash, i've never once thought, "Well now I have to go watch The Flash since he's in the DCEU". They are extremely loosely connecting it.

 

[HalfGlass]

Why would you want something that is like Marvel, when we already have Marvel? DC needs to be different not a clone.

I guess I’m not saying I want it to be like Marvel....what they did with Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Shazam post-Justice League was good. I just feel like they’re too far gone now with this timeline and all the adjustments they’ve made. Course correcting now and having another Justice League movie would be almost impossible even after Flashpoint, so I’m just saying get the tone of the characters right from the start in a reboot.

 

[Pirate Athos]

As the for SnyderCut... it kinda didn't exist. There was footage shot, but Visual effects weren't done and they even had to do reshoots for the ZSJL version. That's not a movie that exists. That's a half-finished project sitting on the shelf that cost them $70M to finish. Supposedly there was conversation to put it out as it was by Snyder said no because he didn't want to be judged on an unfinished product - one that would've been without finished CGI.

And I get that some things with the CW connect, obviously Ezra Miller being a big part of that. But Agents of Shield had a lot of things that connected to the MCU and none of it really mattered. They had characters from the MCU that came onto AoS and they basically don't count that show as canon. My point is, I think DC/WB considers the CW stuff as it's own universe and while the shows may reference things that happen in the movies, the movies ignore the shows. Even with Ezra Miller being Flash, i've never once thought, "Well now I have to go watch The Flash since he's in the DCEU". They are extremely loosely connecting it.

WB was denying that the unfinished footage existed, and said several times after it was reveled it did, that they will not be releasing it. They lied and denied till they couldn't any more.

What AoS is and what the DC multiverse is are two entirely different animals. A multiverse doesn't mean that the movies have to acknowledge the TV shows nor do the TV shows have to address the movies. Each project can be as connected or not connected as the creator wants it to be. It can be its own canon, or it can be linked to another movie.

 

[Nick]

WB was denying that the unfinished footage existed, and said several times after it was reveled it did, that they will not be releasing it. They lied and denied till they couldn't any more.

I'd have to see a link to a specific to see that they denied the footage existing because of course it existed. Tell any idiot that someone directed part of a movie and then got replaced and they'll be able to figure out that yeah, footage exists from Snyder.

And they absolutely didn't plan on releasing the film. The only reason this happened is because HBOMax launched. Even HBOMax didn't want to spend the money for the Visual Effects initially. They just wanted to put the version Zack had together without putting any money into it. HBOMax was talked into spending the money after the Snyders compared it to top Netflix shows and how it could drive subscribers.

But fans kept hope alive. They called for the Snyder Cut to be released, with that fan campaign reaching a crescendo on Nov. 17, 2019, the second anniversary of the ill-fated theatrical version, with stars such as Ben Affleck, Gal Gadot and Ray Fisher asking for its release on social media. The hashtag #ReleasetheSnyderCut climbed to new heights that day, too.

The next morning, the Snyders received the call asking if they'd like to release the Snyder Cut on HBO Max. The initial offer was to put the cut, as it was, on the streaming service, without investing the money to complete the vision. So the Snyders got to work, and with the help of CAA, prepared a presentation showcasing the reach #TheSnyderCut had on social media.

"We compared that to the top shows on Netflix, so we could then make the comparison of what the power of this fanbase was and how that translated into subscribers for HBO Max," says Deborah Snyder. "When they were like, 'Well, we don't want to spend the money on this,' and then you are like 'OK, but, you do see there's an upside?'"

‘Justice League’ Producer Deborah Snyder on Assembling A-Listers During COVID-19 and the Power of Fans

Deborah Snyder reveals how she and husband Zack Snyder convinced WarnerMedia to invest in the Snyder Cut, and looks at the race to finish the visual effects on a compressed time table.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[TheGentTrent]

Don't know how reliable this info is, but if true, it IS head-scratching why WB won't continue with Snyder or #ReleaseTheAyerCut.

'Zack Snyder's Justice League' Is Earning Over $650 Million So Far, And Counting

With more viewers tuning in to "Zack Snyder's Justice League" in their homes via HBO Max, the film is expected to earn even higher.

en.koreaportal.com

 

[Nick]

Don't know how reliable this info is, but if true, it IS head-scratching why WB won't continue Snyder or #ReleaseTheAyerCut.

'Zack Snyder's Justice League' Is Earning Over $650 Million So Far, And Counting

With more viewers tuning in to "Zack Snyder's Justice League" in their homes via HBO Max, the film is expected to earn even higher.

en.koreaportal.com

How would you even be able to put a specific monetary total of money grossed on a streaming title? I'll wait for one of the trades to report something before I believe that type of a thing.

Also, the Ayer Cut is a much more fringe group that is calling for it than that of the Snyder Cut. And I think WB just wants to move forward and they also seem to be projecting a mentality of THEY are in charge, not the fans. They listened for the Snyder Cut, but that's it.

They have to set that tone imo because anytime you give in to fan demands, it becomes a slippery slope. Now they are going to want more and more so they are coming out and just saying "no, this is what we are doing going forward, Zack got his trilogy, but that's it".

 

[Pirate Athos]

I'd have to see a link to a specific to see that they denied the footage existing because of course it existed. Tell any idiot that someone directed part of a movie and then got replaced and they'll be able to figure out that yeah, footage exists from Snyder.

And they absolutely didn't plan on releasing the film. The only reason this happened is because HBOMax launched. Even HBOMax didn't want to spend the money for the Visual Effects initially. They just wanted to put the version Zack had together without putting any money into it. HBOMax was talked into spending the money after the Snyders compared it to top Netflix shows and how it could drive subscribers.

‘Justice League’ Producer Deborah Snyder on Assembling A-Listers During COVID-19 and the Power of Fans

Deborah Snyder reveals how she and husband Zack Snyder convinced WarnerMedia to invest in the Snyder Cut, and looks at the race to finish the visual effects on a compressed time table.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Hmm seems I mispoke, they didnt deny footage, they denied the Snyder Cut existed. To which Snyder corrected them and said it does. Zack Snyder Confirms A Snyder Cut Of Justice League Exists (screenrant.com)

It's not that they didn't plan, it's that they said they never would, they also said they would never work with Snyder again. WB has consistently said they wouldn't do things with ZSJL, and yet here we are today with a successful release of a completed film. Can't believe anything the WB execs say. They lie and deny anything surrounding Justice League.

 

[Nick]

It's not that they didn't plan, it's that they said they never would, they also said they would never work with Snyder again. WB has consistently said they wouldn't do things with ZSJL, and yet here we are today with a successful release of a completed film. Can't believe anything the WB execs say. They lie and deny anything surrounding Justice League.

Dude, it was never going to happen without HBO Max. This wasn't something that was always in the cards to happen. The reason their statements are so inconsistent is because in 2018 and 2019, they had no intention of ever going back to Zack's version of the film. Then once HBOMax was announced, everything changed, because it was a new outlet, like Netflix, to release content and obviously if HBO Max was trying to be a successful streamer, they need subscribers.

Instead of being bitter, maybe you could be thankful that you even got a finished version of Zack Snyder's vision. It took $70M to get this done that Warner/HBO Max didn't need to give to him. They could have told him it was too costly and not worth it and then you would have never seen this version. Instead you're whining because WB/DC won't give you more Snyderverse when they never promised you anything more than ZSJL.

 

[Pirate Athos]

Also, the Ayer Cut is a much more fringe group that is calling for it than that of the Snyder Cut. And I think WB just wants to move forward and they also seem to be projecting a mentality of THEY are in charge, not the fans. They listened for the Snyder Cut, but that's it.

They have to set that tone imo because anytime you give in to fan demands, it becomes a slippery slope. Now they are going to want more and more so they are coming out and just saying "no, this is what we are doing going forward, Zack got his trilogy, but that's it".

Release the Snyder Cut started as a fringe movement too.

Ayer confirmed a Ayer cut exists.

I don't understand why they would fight the fans on any of this. ZSJL was a vast improvement and restored Snyder's vision of the film, and looks like it was a success both critically and among a majority of the fans.

 

[Nick]

Release the Snyder Cut started as a fringe movement too.

Ayer confirmed a Ayer cut exists.

I don't understand why they would fight the fans on any of this. ZSJL was a vast improvement and restored Snyder's vision of the film, and looks like it was a success both critically and among a majority of the fans.

The difference between the two is the actors actually got involved in the Snyder Cut movement, which was pre-planned by Snyder himself to gauge interest, which led to HBO Max funding the movie literally the next day. There has been no such thing where the actors have expressed public interest in the Ayer cut.

 

[Brian G.]

Yea - I think we need to realize the Snyder Cut saw the light of the day due to the extremist of circumstances. (Loss of daughter, pandemic, new streaming service, public support from fans and actors for this, a faulty DCEU so far...)

 

[Pirate Athos]

Dude, it was never going to happen without HBO Max. This wasn't something that was always in the cards to happen. The reason their statements are so inconsistent is because in 2018 and 2019, they had no intention of ever going back to Zack's version of the film. Then once HBOMax was announced, everything changed, because it was a new outlet, like Netflix, to release content and obviously if HBO Max was trying to be a successful streamer, they need subscribers.

Instead of being bitter, maybe you could be thankful that you even got a finished version of Zack Snyder's vision. It took $70M to get this done that Warner/HBO Max didn't need to give to him. They could have told him it was too costly and not worth it and then you would have never seen this version. Instead you're whining because WB/DC won't give you more Snyderverse when they never promised you anything more than ZSJL.

Who is defensive now? Words like Dude, saying I'm whining, and telling me to be thankful, indicate that maybe you are getting frustrated or angry. Perhaps you should step back?

I'm not whining or bitter about anything, I only said you can't trust what WB says, their track record of statements proves it.

HBO MAX has nothing to do with anything. In this article WB says they won't be releasing the Snyder Cut on HBO MAX. WB Reportedly Won't Release 'Snyder Cut' Or Work With The Director Ever Again (screengeek.net) Fact is concerning Snyder and Justice League WB lies...consistently.

The difference between the two is the actors actually got involved in the Snyder Cut movement, which was pre-planned by Snyder himself to gauge interest, which led to HBO Max funding the movie literally the next day. There has been no such thing where the actors have expressed public interest in the Ayer cut.

Give it time. Release the Snyder Cut took years.

 

[Nick]

Who is defensive now? Words like Dude, saying I'm whining, and telling me to be thankful, indicate that maybe you are getting frustrated or angry. Perhaps you should step back?

I'm not whining or bitter about anything, I only said you can't trust what WB says, their track record of statements proves it.

I'm not defensive or any of that. I'm exhausted trying to reason with you. Clearly I won't ever be able to. I know i'm not as big of a DC fan as you are, but I do watch the movies and some shows, follow news, and I do know how to use the internet and read, too. I can tell truth from BS.

HBO MAX has nothing to do with anything. In this article WB says they won't be releasing the Snyder Cut on HBO MAX. WB Reportedly Won't Release 'Snyder Cut' Or Work With The Director Ever Again (screengeek.net) Fact is concerning Snyder and Justice League WB lies...consistently.

Go to the original source. That Screen Geek article cites a now deleted article from a site called FandomWire when saying it won't go to HBOMax, so I wouldn't call that reputable.

 

[Legacy]

Who is defensive now? Words like Dude, saying I'm whining, and telling me to be thankful, indicate that maybe you are getting frustrated or angry. Perhaps you should step back?

I'm not whining or bitter about anything, I only said you can't trust what WB says, their track record of statements proves it.

HBO MAX has nothing to do with anything. In this article WB says they won't be releasing the Snyder Cut on HBO MAX. WB Reportedly Won't Release 'Snyder Cut' Or Work With The Director Ever Again (screengeek.net) Fact is concerning Snyder and Justice League WB lies...consistently.



Give it time. Release the Snyder Cut took years.

You really sound defensive and whiny about it.

And acting like the existence of an Ayer’s cut is a massive conspiracy is silly because any director of a nearly completed film has their own cut. There’s a #LordMillerSoloCut too. There are countless incomplete, non-theatrical cuts that never see the light of day. Because they’re not supposed to see the light of day. The studios own this footage. It doesn’t belong to the directors, the writers, the actors, or (especially) the fans.

If the Snyder Cut had been drastic, universal improvement over the theatrical cut, then there would likely be more leverage to revisit other bombs. Instead, it’s been received a marginally improved, but still no masterpiece film. It’s serviceable. And it did the job of getting eyes on HBOMax. This isn’t going to be a thing.

 

[Pirate Athos]

Go to the original source. That Screen Geek article cites a now deleted article from a site called FandomWire when saying it won't go to HBOMax, so I wouldn't call that reputable.

If you don’t like that one, maybe Variety will meet your requirements?

DC Films Plots Future With Superman, Green Lantern and R-Rated Movies (EXCLUSIVE)

DC Films appears to have hit its stride, rebounding from "Justice League" and poor reviews for "Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice."

variety.com

You really sound defensive and whiny about it.

And acting like the existence of an Ayer’s cut is a massive conspiracy is silly because any director of a nearly completed film has their own cut. There’s a #LordMillerSoloCut too. There are countless incomplete, non-theatrical cuts that never see the light of day. Because they’re not supposed to see the light of day. The studios own this footage. It doesn’t belong to the directors, the writers, the actors, or (especially) the fans.

If the Snyder Cut had been drastic, universal improvement over the theatrical cut, then there would likely be more leverage to revisit other bombs. Instead, it’s been received a marginally improved, but still no masterpiece film. It’s serviceable. And it did the job of getting eyes on HBOMax. This isn’t going to be a thing.

So, replying to people with different points of views and discussing topics while having a different opinion is defensive and whiny. Got it.

I didn't say that the Ayer cut was a massive conspiracy. I didn't even bring the Ayer cut into the conversation, merely commented on Nick's post about it being a fringe. Not sure why you are assigning this to me.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

Just because Justice League got it's Assembly reel primarily finished as far as i'm aware; it doesn't mean that it should be the standard for film going forward. Yes--an Ayer version of Suicide Squad exists. But there's a difference of events that warrants that of Justice League getting a rerelease, and quite a few reasons why it doesn't for Ayer's Suicide Squad. The most important being, to not confuse and muddle the messaging and branding of James Gunn's R-Rated Suicide Squad project and Peacemaker.

Could they, down the road? Probably not. I get the feeling it'll be chalked up by fans to be a "myth" when in reality, non-released cuts are common nowadays. I'm more happy to see Snyder's work finished, so that way he can move onto other exciting projects. Same goes for most of the creative forces in the DCEU pre Bad Robot Productions.

 

[CoryLevy91]

Yea - I think we need to realize the Snyder Cut saw the light of the day due to the extremist of circumstances. (Loss of daughter, pandemic, new streaming service, public support from fans and actors for this, a faulty DCEU so far...)

This times 1000. If it wasn't for the pandemic shutting down production and a new streaming service desperate for content, the Snyder Cut would have never been an actual thing that was released.

That said the entire situation is fascinating and a very clear example of the studio taking advantage of a director and very visibly ruining a work. I personally haven't seen either version (I have legitimately zero interest in any of the DC films, especially the Snyder ones) but from everything I've seen and heard, the Snyder Cut is a an actual coherent story that makes sense and isn't a mishmash of ideas and tones.