Blue World Project - Orca Tank Expansion

[Plastic Person]

Not to suggest Blackfish is a flawless film, but I think it appealed to a wider, slightly more relate-able consensus that it's a bit weird and mean to keep a mammal that big in a pool that small. I'm still undecided, but I don't see why we should trust a profit-driven corporate conglomerate anymore or less than an independent film-making team.

Still, at least the discussion here is a little more informed and mature than on some other forums, where apparently this downturn in guest numbers is "Idiocracy happening for real." :inquisitive:

 

[IzzyB]

Not to suggest Blackfish is a flawless film, but I think it appealed to a wider, slightly more relate-able consensus that it's a bit weird and mean to keep a mammal that big in a pool that small. I'm still undecided, but I don't see why we should trust a profit-driven corporate conglomerate anymore or less than an independent film-making team.

Still, at least the discussion here is a little more informed and mature than on some other forums, where apparently this downturn in guest numbers is "Idiocracy happening for real." :inquisitive:

I don't blindly trust Sea World and I certainly do not blindly trust this movie. Independent resources have proved many parts of this movie to either be lies or stretching the truth. You also have to remember when they started keeping Orcas it was a different time. People also at the time didn't know smoking killed you, there was no internet, cell phone, or other technology that was easy to research. No one thought it was wrong. They have not captured Orcas for a very long time because Sea World knows capturing animals like this from the wild and putting them in a tank would be wrong. However, the issue I have is releasing the current Orcas into the wild is not the solution. We have no clue if they would even know how to survive since they never have been in the wild. Also, trying to take down a company that now does do a lot of work for the good of the animals to me just doesn't seem like it is the best way to go about this either. I think this bigger tank is a good compromise and maybe it is something that could have been worked out without trying to take them down in a deceitful way. the other thing is none of us know how those whales really think, for all we know they could be the happiest whales because they are kept fed and get interacted with all the time. There is just too much grey area, but I am glad Sea World is making their environment better and I think a lot of zoos and places like Sea World over the years have learned more and more how to keep animals in environments that work much better for them and still allow research of the animals and teaching the world about these animals. Look at Animal Kingdom vs. what a traditional zoo used to be. A small cage for a gorilla vs. a large field with the vegetation they are used too.

 

[natespf]

I don't blindly trust Sea World and I certainly do not blindly trust this movie. Independent resources have proved many parts of this movie to either be lies or stretching the truth. You also have to remember when they started keeping Orcas it was a different time. People also at the time didn't know smoking killed you, there was no internet, cell phone, or other technology that was easy to research. No one thought it was wrong. They have not captured Orcas for a very long time because Sea World knows capturing animals like this from the wild and putting them in a tank would be wrong. However, the issue I have is releasing the current Orcas into the wild is not the solution. We have no clue if they would even know how to survive since they never have been in the wild. Also, trying to take down a company that now does do a lot of work for the good of the animals to me just doesn't seem like it is the best way to go about this either. I think this bigger tank is a good compromise and maybe it is something that could have been worked out without trying to take them down in a deceitful way. the other thing is none of us know how those whales really think, for all we know they could be the happiest whales because they are kept fed and get interacted with all the time. There is just too much grey area, but I am glad Sea World is making their environment better and I think a lot of zoos and places like Sea World over the years have learned more and more how to keep animals in environments that work much better for them and still allow research of the animals and teaching the world about these animals. Look at Animal Kingdom vs. what a traditional zoo used to be. A small cage for a gorilla vs. a large field with the vegetation they are used too.

This is about where I am at. It is not just that there are SOME flaws in Blackfish, but the whole presentation (100% of it) is an attempt to deceive the viewer. I am for the discussion, but fact is Blackfish actually takes away from the discussion. SeaWorld calls everyone in a wetsuit for the show a "trainer", Blackfish took a few of them and presented them as experts when they were not actually responsible for the well-being of these animals. They had interviews over unrelated video and not distinguish between them. And as has been said before you can not just release the Orcas and expect them to survive. It would probably cost a billion dollars to actually get all of these animals ready for release, and after that most of them would probably still die anyways. How this situation started is over, the discussion needs to be about real solutions that can be done now after the fact.

 

[Brian G.]

Put the orcas back on the moon!

 

[Teebin]

I don't blindly trust Sea World and I certainly do not blindly trust this movie. Independent resources have proved many parts of this movie to either be lies or stretching the truth.

You failed to mention anything about the forced breeding of Orcas. They don't need to capture them any longer because they have become a factory of them, even then, they break up the family units and sell them to other marine parks.

I have investigated the statements that the movie contains lies and found nothing of the sort. I can see where the film may embellish a fact, but in the end, it is still a fact. Whether or not the whale ripped the woman's arm off or ate it, in the end, doesn't alter the fact that her arm was separated from her body. Is the film biased, yes, but most if not all documentaries and films and even news organizations have an agenda of some sort.

I am compelled by the bias and agenda while it appears others are not.

 

[IzzyB]

You failed to mention anything about the forced breeding of Orcas. They don't need to capture them any longer because they have become a factory of them, even then, they break up the family units and sell them to other marine parks.

I have investigated the statements that the movie contains lies and found nothing of the sort. I can see where the film may embellish a fact, but in the end, it is still a fact. Whether or not the whale ripped the woman's arm off or ate it, in the end, doesn't alter the fact that her arm was separated from her body. Is the film biased, yes, but most if not all documentaries and films and even news organizations have an agenda of some sort.

I am compelled by the bias and agenda while it appears others are not.

Yes, they do breed them still. I am not sure how I feel about this to be honest. But it is no different than zoos and other places doing the same thing. I think that is my issue here, they concentrated on Sea World because it is the largest known name. But this is an issue throughout our whole country with all animal exhibits. And I guess the question is, do we do more good by having captive animals or more harm. So having captive rescues is a good thing, the research we do is a good thing, the education to people is a good thing. But obviously putting animals in an enclosure is not the best. Which is why I said over time we have found better ways to make them feel more in the wild or more at home. I think the marine life has been the hardest and now Sea World is finally taking advantage of technology to make their habitat better. I am really on the fence with a lot of this stuff. You almost can make the same cases for dogs, cats, rabbits, and any pet we keep in the home. Is it a good thing cats and dogs started to be raised in the home or should they have stayed in the wild? I would say they are happy, but if that was the case they probably would never run away from their home, which many do. It is such a grey area and I won't condemn one place or stop going to one place because of this grey area. I also think we can do more and make things better, which I am glad Sea World is doing. But I don't think there is a perfect solution and I know releasing them into the wild is not the solution at all.

 

[natespf]

You failed to mention anything about the forced breeding of Orcas. They don't need to capture them any longer because they have become a factory of them, even then, they break up the family units and sell them to other marine parks.

I have investigated the statements that the movie contains lies and found nothing of the sort. I can see where the film may embellish a fact, but in the end, it is still a fact. Whether or not the whale ripped the woman's arm off or ate it, in the end, doesn't alter the fact that her arm was separated from her body. Is the film biased, yes, but most if not all documentaries and films and even news organizations have an agenda of some sort.

I am compelled by the bias and agenda while it appears others are not.

My point about the arm not being swallowed is that they just did not care about the facts at each step, and would present misinformation to propel their narrative. Later in the film they tried to spin it that Tilikum has acquired a taste for human blood, and his aggressiveness is a learned trait from being captive. They went on to imply that his offspring would somehow magically inherit these learned traits.

Now the fact that they no longer capture Orcas is good, but it is definitely not a redeeming point for SeaWorld IMO. They were basically forced out of it, and it did turn out in their favor as now they have a monopoly on Orcas.

I will also admit that almost all popular modern documentaries are leaning to one side, but not to the level that Blackfish took it to. Like I said I have watched it several times to see if they made the connections, and they are just not there.

 

[Teebin]

Yes, they do breed them still. I am not sure how I feel about this to be honest...

Yep, I once asked one of the AK "college program"??? attendants taking notes at the gorilla exhibit if they know if the gorillas are happy or depressed. She said, "we don't know, we can't really tell".

I walked away thinking, "well that was insightful...".

 

[shiekra38]

Yes, they do breed them still. I am not sure how I feel about this to be honest. But it is no different than zoos and other places doing the same thing. I think that is my issue here, they concentrated on Sea World because it is the largest known name. But this is an issue throughout our whole country with all animal exhibits. And I guess the question is, do we do more good by having captive animals or more harm. So having captive rescues is a good thing, the research we do is a good thing, the education to people is a good thing. But obviously putting animals in an enclosure is not the best. Which is why I said over time we have found better ways to make them feel more in the wild or more at home. I think the marine life has been the hardest and now Sea World is finally taking advantage of technology to make their habitat better. I am really on the fence with a lot of this stuff. You almost can make the same cases for dogs, cats, rabbits, and any pet we keep in the home. Is it a good thing cats and dogs started to be raised in the home or should they have stayed in the wild? I would say they are happy, but if that was the case they probably would never run away from their home, which many do. It is such a grey area and I won't condemn one place or stop going to one place because of this grey area. I also think we can do more and make things better, which I am glad Sea World is doing. But I don't think there is a perfect solution and I know releasing them into the wild is not the solution at all.

Sea World Parks are the top of the zoos..best of the best...therefore it is easy to call them out since they are the biggest name..there are certainly cases of REAL animal abuse at zoos around the world..Sea World just carries the big brand...I personally think the days of the big Orca shows are coming to an end in place of viewing and interacting (felt that way before Blackfish really)...Sea World really should become a rehabilitation center with Shamu still being the icon..

You have to admit Blackfish has started a discussion and dialog with people..isn't that the point of a documentary anyway?

 

[Jon84]

In the UK we have a Monkey Rescue Centre called Monkey World (http://www.monkeyworld.org/home.php) They do not capture any Primates from the wild only rescue animals (worldwide).

There has been a huge problem in some Europe Tourist Destinations, particularly Turkey and Spain, where a chimpanzee will be made to walk the beach on a chain in the midday sun in order for people to have their photos taken. Monkey World work with governments to rescue the animals that cannot be released and give them a better home. The Centre is open to the public and all profits are put back into the centre.

They also work with endangered primates like Orang-utans to help global breeding programmes. They have good PR and are known for their good work.

I think my point is that Seaworld is not like the above. It seems to have always been focused on profit and shareholders, with conservation and education on the side, to try and keep peoples opinions on side. If Seaworld started out as a rescue type organisation I think they'd have less of a PR issue on their hands. But, they didn't, and started out capturing, buying and selling to build their business. To expand they have had to start a breeding programme, which is unfortunate as it just makes them look like a business when you cast a quick eye over their activities.

 

[Teebin]

In the UK we have a Monkey Rescue Centre called Monkey World (http://www.monkeyworld.org/home.php) They do not capture any Primates from the wild only rescue animals (worldwide).

Interesting, there is a place like that in Florida too however it is Chimpanzees only. It is not open to the public at all (to my knowledge).

http://www.savethechimps.org/

Each island is a compound in the following aerial:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Save...258,0.017102&t=h&cid=4823816468326555779&z=16

 

[WAJAS]

Trying to keep this separate from the coaster discussion so... in response to what is going on with the Blue World Project...

The new CEO is currently judging whether they should go through with the plan for Orlando and San Antonio until they see the impact it has on the park in San Diego or go through with building all of them starting one year after the next. If he decides to delay it we may not be seeing construction even start on Orlando (which I assume will be second) until the first phase of San Diego is open. Also, with the new coaster going partially on the pond where I think lots up us saw this project going in Orlando where do you guys think it will actually be located? Maybe they will just take half of the pond?

 

[GAcoaster]

The three parks all have varying sized pools and were getting them based on the "need" for expansion, with Orlando having the largest facilities already. I think he's right to re-evaluate the program. No matter how big they build the habitats, AR people will never think they are large enough or stop until they "free" all of the orcas.

 

[alomar]

I think it would be a good idea to maybe wait and see what happens with SWSD. We are still a ways away from them even breaking ground on theirs as far as I know. And if it's a bust and does nothing for attendance, why waste the money at the other locations? It sure isn't going to appease the blackfish nuts jobs no matter what they do with the tanks.

 

[UNIrd]

Eh, still think they should run full speed ahead on this one. If they can build bigger environments for them, then they should.

 

[Jon84]

Eh, still think they should run full speed ahead on this one. If they can build bigger environments for them, then they should.

Agreed. If they know they could do better they should. And they are kind of agreeing there's an issue with the current facilities.

Anyone know if they are paying for Mako with cash from the bank, or getting in more debt. I'm sure the quarterly accounts will probably show they can't afford this or Mako

 

[shiekra38]

Eh, still think they should run full speed ahead on this one. If they can build bigger environments for them, then they should.

At the very least it would be a huge new animal environment for families

 

[WAJAS]

If any of you want to show support for this in San Diego here is the link where you can email the California Coastal Commision to vote yes: www.votervoice.net/mobile/SEAWORLD/campaigns/40600/respond

 

[Scarletwebslingr]

They needed to be proactive instead of reactive, but at least this is a step in the right direction.

 

[Donald Razorduck]

San Diego video