Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Nick]

I just read some backstory on it.

Spoiler

So Snoke apparently has some Osteoporosis-type situation according to Andy Serkis, and his deformities drive his intense hatred.

They easily could have played off that he was never appreciated by Jedi, or maybe even the Sith, and wanted to show that he had just as much as power to rule - and when the Empire fell... he found his entrance. He realized he needed an apprentice and started hearing about the grandson of the great Vader and started to lure Ben over. Easy connection to give to at least care a bit.

Furthermore, this guy didn't just lure Kylo with him - but the Knights of Ren are all Luke's former students so..... he's got some swag...

ALSO WTF - waste of KoR too.

Spoiler

Yeah, I was hoping to see some stuff with the KoR.

Spoiler

I think it's because in the realm of the saga itself, Snoke doesn't matter.

Of course, he matters to some people because some can't let go of the fact that this should matter in some way because that's how former Star Wars movies have taught us. But this is a different beast, one that's laser-focused on the major characters of the saga.

It's a challenging, potentially frustrating concept to not gain the backstory or even feel merit but his point was to make Kylo turn the way that he did and advance his arc.

(edit: also in response to Nick, Snoke was done in by his own hubris. He could not see the forrest for the trees because he was so self-assured)

Needless to say, Rian Johnson does not like to play things safe or by the rules and boy is he dividing people on this film. Like, no offense Brian at all especially since I was the one to initially respond but I rolled my eyes when I saw a response had been made, because I'm just exhausted talking and arguing about this film. Normally I can toss backlash sentiment to a critically-adored blockbuster off to trolls or pot-stirring contrarians (RT audience scores notwithstanding), but here it's people who's opinion I really do respect and cherish just coming off this film with a complete opposite opinions than I do.

It's almost kind of fascinating about what this says about the very stasis of Star Wars and how the fact of its own reverence can also be its downfall. We've had that proven with the prequels, but this time it's downright maddening about the seemingly polarizing perspectives on this film.

I'm not sure the internet can survive this one, net neutrality be damned haha

To me, I was fine with the film being different. I admired that it went in such a drastic direction. But it really ruined a lot of arcs from TFA and ultimately gave JJ a mess going into Episode 9.

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

I think it's because in the realm of the saga itself, Snoke doesn't matter.

Of course, he matters to some people because some can't let go of the fact that this should matter in some way because that's how former Star Wars movies have taught us. But this is a different beast, one that's laser-focused on the major characters of the saga.

It's a challenging, potentially frustrating concept to not gain the backstory or even feel merit but his point was to make Kylo turn the way that he did and advance his arc.

(edit: also in response to Nick, Snoke was done in by his own hubris. He could not see the forrest for the trees because he was so self-assured)

Needless to say, Rian Johnson does not like to play things safe or by the rules and boy is he dividing people on this film. Like, no offense Brian at all especially since I was the one to initially respond but I rolled my eyes when I saw a response had been made, because I'm just exhausted talking and arguing about this film. Normally I can toss backlash sentiment to a critically-adored blockbuster off to trolls or pot-stirring contrarians (RT audience scores notwithstanding), but here it's people who's opinion I really do respect and cherish just coming off this film with a complete opposite opinions than I do.

It's almost kind of fascinating about what this says about the very stasis of Star Wars and how the fact of its own reverence can also be its downfall. We've had that proven with the prequels, but this time it's downright maddening about the seemingly polarizing perspectives on this film.

I'm not sure the internet can survive this one, net neutrality be damned haha

I just find it fascinating that most of what I've seen are so black and white with how people are reacting/reviewing.

Like I said, it's not bad, but I also don't think it's perfect. Hell, I think a 3.5 is pretty fine score and some treat it like it's sacrilegious score to give haha.

I have no problem with anyone loving the movie and differing from my opinion, but to see some people say this film has no flaws or is damn near perfect is just baffling. To me, I can love movies but also admit its flaws.

I'm sure if I just said THAT scene or THAT subplot, most people will pick up automatically what I'm referring to. Everything else is a matter of opinion, ultimately but THAT subplot killed the movie for me. You can cut it, and it has no effect on the movie (other than me probably giving it a 4... )

 

[Nick]

I just find it fascinating that most of what I've seen are so black and white with how people are reacting/reviewing.

Like I said, it's not bad, but I also don't think it's perfect. Hell, I think a 3.5 is pretty fine score and some treat it like it's sacrilegious score to give haha.

I have no problem with anyone loving the movie and differing from my opinion, but to see some people say this film has no flaws or is damn near perfect is just baffling. To me, I can love movies but also admit its flaws.

I'm sure if I just said THAT scene or THAT subplot, most people will pick up automatically what I'm referring to. Everything else is a matter of opinion, ultimately but THAT subplot killed the movie for me. You can cut it, and it has no effect on the movie (other than me probably giving it a 4... )

It would've shaved a solid 25-30 mins off the movie for something better, too.

Spoiler

The issue with the subplot is that it really only serves as a means to set up the cliffhanger with the boy at the end of the movie (if you can actually call that a cliffhanger).

 

[Ryan]

I just find it fascinating that most of what I've seen are so black and white with how people are reacting/reviewing.

Like I said, it's not bad, but I also don't think it's perfect. Hell, I think a 3.5 is pretty fine score and some treat it like it's sacrilegious score to give haha.

Honestly, you're one of the few people I've seen who isn't so black and white as well. Some people just loathe this film and are really, really trashing it as if it hurt them. And yeah, I'm somebody who's also going probably too far in the other direction. (don't get me wrong, it's not flawless as I do have a couple, nitpicky gripes but it doesn't actively harm my admiration)

But woof, the bickering is almost making me tired. Let's go back to when that trailer came out and everybody was feeling rosy

 

[Ultranel]

Well today is the day I'm watching the movie. I'm very surprised by the reaction for this movie, even my cousin who I used to play as a kid with the original action figures back in the early 80s, said "I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either". So I'm worried. He also mention the MCU factor as I'm reading the same in here, and also about the forced jokes. So I'll be feeling a bit uneasy entering the theater, but I will try to focus on the main plot and where it will go, but I have a feeling this movie will not have that star wars atmosphere other sci fi lack. So let see what this is truly all about....

 

[Mr. EPCOT]

Spoiler

I guess this goes forward to talk about the now infamous Snoke death scene... and I think as a subversion of where the story will go, it's a barnburner and an absolute fervent joy for anyone who was a bit ambivalent to the idea of a new Palpatine. This entire film seems to be about disappointment and not being afraid to let go and start fresh, and that's what TLJ seems to be doing. It's an antithesis of TFA, and I think that fact is not sitting well with some people understandably.

However, I applaud the decision to just steer the ship in another direction. It doesn't bother me that Snoke doesn't get an explanation (and trust me, Disney will ensure that in one way or another, it'll happen with their bajillion Star Wars projects), mostly because it keeps to the characters I care about and keeps things invigorating and fresh.

Spoiler

I was so happy to see Snoke killed. He was by far my least favorite thing about TFA. He was just such a stupid, paint-by-numbers villain. Out of everything that was a blatant copy of stuff from the OT, that's the thing that seemed the most egregious to me. I don't want to know his backstory. Episode IX is going to be way more interesting with Kylo Ren at the top rather than just another damn Emperor analogue.

But it really ruined a lot of arcs from TFA and ultimately gave JJ a mess going into Episode 9.

I keep seeing people saying this and this is just absolutely bonkers to me. Saying Johnson "gave JJ a mess" suggests that Johnson is creating this totally autonomously, when nothing could be further from the truth. Abrams is the executive producer on the Last Jedi. I'm pretty sure he was on the think tank team that planned out the broad strokes for the whole trilogy with Kathleen Kennedy before TFA. This is clearly a collaborative effort. To suggest that Abrams will somehow be blindsided with problems from TLJ when he was one of the master architects of its creation is highly illogical. To us it looks like a mess, but Abrams and the other producers know what's coming down the road, and I'm sure they're making every effort to be able to spike the ball for the grand finale. Making a mess is the whole point. If they're doing their jobs correctly, you don't know where the hell they're going to take things next.

Also, I can't help but feel that "ruined a lot of arcs from TFA" is just code for "this didn't go in the direction I expected/wanted."

It would've shaved a solid 25-30 mins off the movie for something better, too.

Spoiler

The issue with the subplot is that it really only serves as a means to set up the cliffhanger with the boy at the end of the movie (if you can actually call that a cliffhanger).

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure that's not meant to be a cliffhanger. I think that was just a statement to say that anyone has the power to resist, to be a rebel, that strength can be found in the most humble of places. If there is going to be any follow-up to that, I don't imagine that the kid will become an Important Character, but I envision that we might see him as part of a montage of a galaxy-wide revolution or something to that effect.

 

[zg44]

Rian Johnson completely rips up the nostalgia and sends Star Wars in a new direction. The reason why he with Lucas/Disney brass (Kennedy, Iger, etc.) in full support did this was because they want Star Wars to be sustainable.

Keeping everything about Skywalkers, Solos, Ken Obis, etc. would make the universe too narrow to really be interesting to general audiences for decades at the release pace that they plan.

Of course, hardcore fans are stunned at this because they wanted the movies to go in the same direction as most of the lore from the many books and fanfiction that came out over the decades.

And I'd imagine JJ was actually in on this; he knew 8 would end up like this when he took the reins on 9.

And yeah, the feeling after TLJ is similar to how people felt after ESB directly after... but then after Return of the Jedi puts the trilogy in perspective, ESB ended up in a different light. The same can/will happen with TLJ if JJ succeeds in 9 at bringing things back together.

The middle of a trilogy should always feel like a lot of broken pieces.

 

[Nick]

Spoiler

I was so happy to see Snoke killed. He was by far my least favorite thing about TFA. He was just such a stupid, paint-by-numbers villain. Out of everything that was a blatant copy of stuff from the OT, that's the thing that seemed the most egregious to me. I don't want to know his backstory. Episode IX is going to be way more interesting with Kylo Ren at the top rather than just another damn Emperor analogue.

I keep seeing people saying this and this is just absolutely bonkers to me. Saying Johnson "gave JJ a mess" suggests that Johnson is creating this totally autonomously, when nothing could be further from the truth. Abrams is the executive producer on the Last Jedi. I'm pretty sure he was on the think tank team that planned out the broad strokes for the whole trilogy with Kathleen Kennedy before TFA. This is clearly a collaborative effort. To suggest that Abrams will somehow be blindsided with problems from TLJ when he was one of the master architects of its creation is highly illogical. To us it looks like a mess, but Abrams and the other producers know what's coming down the road, and I'm sure they're making every effort to be able to spike the ball for the grand finale. Making a mess is the whole point. If they're doing their jobs correctly, you don't know where the hell they're going to take things next.

Also, I can't help but feel that "ruined a lot of arcs from TFA" is just code for "this didn't go in the direction I expected/wanted."

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure that's not meant to be a cliffhanger. I think that was just a statement to say that anyone has the power to resist, to be a rebel, that strength can be found in the most humble of places. If there is going to be any follow-up to that, I don't imagine that the kid will become an Important Character, but I envision that we might see him as part of a montage of a galaxy-wide revolution or something to that effect.

It’s not code for what I didn’t want/expect. It’s just me sitting back and evaluating it.

Going to a second showing of it now, I’ll let you know if my opinion changes.

 

[jtsalien]

You know at first I didn't understand why people thought they MCU'd Star Wars. But...

Spoiler

I was totally expecting Yoda to say "Asgard isn't a place, it's a people." when he had his scene with Luke. Which also, A++++ for puppetry and not CGI there. So I think some people are put off by Ragnarok sharing some similar themes, and that's making it feel like this wasn't so fresh of an idea.

But I thought they tied the theme together really well at the end. I get why some people absolutely hate that Star Wars (at least for now) isn't about a chosen one, or a special family anymore. But we already saw that story play out. So I do think the interesting way to go is to just repeat the same story with Rey being related to someone from the originally trilogy. The whole movie it's about how only Luke can spark hope, or Kylo taking his own selfish actions, but at the end it's shown that hope is an idea. And that it needs to bring together people. And when you peronsify it, or power, or anything like Kylie and Snoke do...you lose.

 

[LieutLaww]

My thoughts on Snoke

Spoiler

I don't see Snoke's death as cheap at all, I feel it was more about Kylo using Snoke's own arrogance against him. He revealed it had been him that had made the bridge between the two of them and he knew that Rey would come and try and turn Ben as that is just the person she is so he manipulated both of them for his own gain. Now Kylo doesn't like the idea of being used and he is far too gone down the path of the dark side to be turned (possibly) and senses an opportunity to remove Snoke and take over The First Order so after Snoke has finished torturing Rey and tells him to kill her he shows Snoke exactly what he wants to see a Lightsaber turning and being used but Ben blindsided him by masking the fact it was Rey's Lightsaber he was turning and then activating and taking Snoke out.

 

[youhow2]

Spoiler

An overarching theme in people who are giving this movie a pass is about how it's actually a positive they are moving away from a skywalker centered storyline.

I'm sorry, Star Wars is about the Skywalkers and how that bloodline was to bring balance to the force. The prequel trilogy shows the formation of the empire and Anakin becoming Vader. OT shows the rebels effectively destroying the Empire and Vader's son, Luke bringing balance back to the force and the Galaxy after the reign of the sith.

This new Trilogy has come in and kind of gone "Oh hey, so the Empire actually survived, Reborn as the First Order and even though luke was presumably the only Jedi in the Galaxy, Somehow some random sith guy came out of nowhere knowing about the difference in the dark and light sides of the force and pulled together a similar arrangement to the Empire, all while the Rebels still existed... That's fine. Personally, I can take that. TFA I'd give a B...

But what that does to the narrative is demand explanation, because it does not make sense with what has been established.

This new movie takes everything set up in the last film and just kind of invalidates it. Snoke doesn't matter. Rey's parents don't matter (Though it's been established that bloodlines are 100% important to the overarching story in the Star Wars universe through 7 previous movies) Luke is not a hero or powerful jedi master. He lays down and dies, never standing up to his failure in Ren, His Nephew with any actual consequence as he does it via "force-casting" his image from another planet. He then dies... Which would be a powerful, If he was in any danger in the first place and not a sorry old man on a planet far far away, avoiding conflict. His character arc is he is avoiding conflict the whole time... then dies as a "hero" who avoided any conflict. They took away everything about his character from the first trilogy, and explained his new turn in passing and expect the audience to swallow it... While telling us several times in dialogue to throw away the past and telling us the old stuff doesn't mean anything anymore, and it's time for "new". It's almost offensive. Don't tell me how to enjoy your *poop*-show.

Some people like plots and stories pulling "lost" tactics where you just eschew the rules and completely disregard the story to do something "cool" then try to explain it later. I'm not a fan, and it doesn't work for established story vehicles. Star Wars is an established Story, in an established universe. They thought they could get away with MCU level retcons to character arcs and stories from the comics. The reason it works for those movies is that they built those movies from the ground-up in a different universe. The Star Wars Universe began it's existence in film, and this is a continuation of what was established before. You can't throw away the established narrative for a primarily film-based franchise, and if you are choosing to continue the story you should be respectful of the story that came before it.

This, "let's do several things and throw them away as shockers" storytelling is poor storytelling for people who don't pay attention. Tell a straight story. A good shocker is "Han dies by his son's hand while reaching out to save him". Not, Guess what, We're gonna tease killing this character by doing something that should have absolutely killed this character, and killed another beloved character... Then pull a "Gotcha". Leia scene is there just to mess with you. It could have been an important point in the narrative for the overall story and for Ren. But as if almost just to be *butt-hats* to the fans, they pulled the Mary Poppins crap. It made zero sense, force powers be damned.

 

[Mr. EPCOT]

*REDACTED*

 

[Nick]

Just saw the movie for a second time and imo it holds up a lot better in repeat viewings after you already know what is going to happen.

I enjoyed it a lot more second time around and picked up on a few things that fill in the “whys” I had from my initial viewing.

 

[WebHead1138]

One of the most disappointing films I have ever seen. Didn't like it but I didn't hate it. It's not a bad film but I HATED the direction they took the story. They ruined one of the best characters for me. Some plot points went nowhere. Some questions weren't answered. And a build up to a question with the most unsatisfactory result. I will not be watching this film in theaters again. No amount of repeat viewings will make me like this film. And I'm someone who loved the force awakens, rogue one, and the prequels. Rian Johnson has ruined Star Wars for me.

 

[fryoj]

Spoiler

I'm left disappointed as well. Not a bad movie, but it could have been so much more. I guess the biggest thing is that it feels like Johnson Thought he was making the third movie in the trilogy than the second. I mean literally all that needed to happen was for "force Luke' somehow kill Kylo before pulling a Ben Kenobi evaporation and you have a convincing final set. The bad Force users are dead, the rebels are weakened, but alive, and you have the kid at the end showing that there are Jedi everywhere and hope lives with the story of Luke Skywalker. But no, this is the middle movie. We aren't supposed to end it with the big bad guy dead, the weak bad guy in charge, the good Jedi looking strong, and hope spreading across the galaxy. Middle movies are supposed to leave you thinking that hope is lost and the bad guys are unstoppable. Obviously there will be swerves in 9, but it's a pretty straight forward Rebels grow and romp over the First Order with Kylo dying or turning at the end.

They hinted at the double Kylo/Rey turn, with him not killing his mother, and her being seduced by the dark cave. I really thought they should have went with that. Maybe that happens in the next movie. If it does, I'll see it as wasted potential. They could have had Rey, frustrated by Luke's refusal to help, turn this movie and not have snoke die. Have everything else happen like it did except they get out of the caves another way. That would have made this movie felts so much more satisfying. Then the next movie Kylo can kill Snoke, turn good. And him and Rey can have the epic final battle.

As for the lack of Snoke details and Rey's parents. The Snoke one, I can live with. He shouldn't have died this early. I think more explanation about how he rose to power would have been nice, but whatever. The Rey's parents thing is just crap. They hinted way too much that she was somebody in TFA. He parent being druggie junkers fits nothing they presented us. I'm really assuming its a swerve and they save that for the last movie. Left as is, no.

 

[WebHead1138]

Spoiler

I'm left disappointed as well. Not a bad movie, but it could have been so much more. I guess the biggest thing is that it feels like Johnson Thought he was making the third movie in the trilogy than the second. I mean literally all that needed to happen was for "force Luke' somehow kill Kylo before pulling a Ben Kenobi evaporation and you have a convincing final set. The bad Force users are dead, the rebels are weakened, but alive, and you have the kid at the end showing that there are Jedi everywhere and hope lives with the story of Luke Skywalker. But no, this is the middle movie. We aren't supposed to end it with the big bad guy dead, the weak bad guy in charge, the good Jedi looking strong, and hope spreading across the galaxy. Middle movies are supposed to leave you thinking that hope is lost and the bad guys are unstoppable. Obviously there will be swerves in 9, but it's a pretty straight forward Rebels grow and romp over the First Order with Kylo dying or turning at the end.

They hinted at the double Kylo/Rey turn, with him not killing his mother, and her being seduced by the dark cave. I really thought they should have went with that. Maybe that happens in the next movie. If it does, I'll see it as wasted potential. They could have had Rey, frustrated by Luke's refusal to help, turn this movie and not have snoke die. Have everything else happen like it did except they get out of the caves another way. That would have made this movie felts so much more satisfying. Then the next movie Kylo can kill Snoke, turn good. And him and Rey can have the epic final battle.

As for the lack of Snoke details and Rey's parents. The Snoke one, I can live with. He shouldn't have died this early. I think more explanation about how he rose to power would have been nice, but whatever. The Rey's parents thing is just crap. They hinted way too much that she was somebody in TFA. He parent being druggie junkers fits nothing they presented us. I'm really assuming its a swerve and they save that for the last movie. Left as is, no.

I agree with everything you said. I'm really hoping episode 9 answers or corrects the questions that were/weren't answered. To be honest I don't even care about episode 9. This movie left such a bad taste in my mouth. I'll obviously go see it because I'm a fan. But, this movie really killed it for me. I feel like I'll just watch the sequel just to get it over with.

 

[jtsalien]

Spoiler

I'm left disappointed as well. Not a bad movie, but it could have been so much more. I guess the biggest thing is that it feels like Johnson Thought he was making the third movie in the trilogy than the second. I mean literally all that needed to happen was for "force Luke' somehow kill Kylo before pulling a Ben Kenobi evaporation and you have a convincing final set. The bad Force users are dead, the rebels are weakened, but alive, and you have the kid at the end showing that there are Jedi everywhere and hope lives with the story of Luke Skywalker. But no, this is the middle movie. We aren't supposed to end it with the big bad guy dead, the weak bad guy in charge, the good Jedi looking strong, and hope spreading across the galaxy. Middle movies are supposed to leave you thinking that hope is lost and the bad guys are unstoppable. Obviously there will be swerves in 9, but it's a pretty straight forward Rebels grow and romp over the First Order with Kylo dying or turning at the end.

They hinted at the double Kylo/Rey turn, with him not killing his mother, and her being seduced by the dark cave. I really thought they should have went with that. Maybe that happens in the next movie. If it does, I'll see it as wasted potential. They could have had Rey, frustrated by Luke's refusal to help, turn this movie and not have snoke die. Have everything else happen like it did except they get out of the caves another way. That would have made this movie felts so much more satisfying. Then the next movie Kylo can kill Snoke, turn good. And him and Rey can have the epic final battle.

As for the lack of Snoke details and Rey's parents. The Snoke one, I can live with. He shouldn't have died this early. I think more explanation about how he rose to power would have been nice, but whatever. The Rey's parents thing is just crap. They hinted way too much that she was somebody in TFA. He parent being druggie junkers fits nothing they presented us. I'm really assuming its a swerve and they save that for the last movie. Left as is, no.

Spoiler

Does it have to be that way in a trilogy just because Empire went that way? I mean, BTTF 2 (arguably one of the best sequels outside of Empire) ends up with things pretty well tied up in terms of bad guys, but Doc being stuck in the Old West. I think this will play out a lot more like BTTF 2-3 than Empire-Return. Granted, neither of those final installments are all that fondly remembered But what I mean is I think it's setting up for a lot less of more Empire-Rebel retread, but probably a conclusion of the very personal conflicts of Ben Solo. This movie proved that it believes a rebellion, resistance, whatever you want to call it is more than a single person. I'm sure Ben will face consequences of his massive failure at the end of TLJ. So I think it's more of a continuation of a story like 2-3 was than how Empire-Return were very strict and traditional parts of a 3 Act narrative. Different? Sure. Bad? Nope.

And this isn't a response to you per se, but Star Wars isn't mine. It isn't yours. It isn't anyone's. Nobody has ruined Star Wars, because it's not a thing that can be ruined. The legacy will live on in so many different ways, that people need calm the hell down with the "ruined, trashed, destroyed, disrespected" over the top nonsense narrative that's being thrown around right now. It's all just 2017 over reaction culture. Yes you can indiviually be disappointed, but just beause they didn't tell the story you wanted to see doesn't mean it's a bad movie

.

 

[UNIrd]

Giant eyeroll at some of these reviews. The movie was great. Had some faults sure, but literally every Star Wars movie does. How any of you can come away so disappointed when this is easily in the top half of all 9 Star Wars movies is laughable.

Also, giving Rian Johnson too much credit. The story is the story. I wonder how some of you would have reacted to the "choices" made in the original trilogy if George Lucas didn't direct them all.

 

[jtsalien]

Giant eyeroll at some of these reviews. The movie was great. Had some faults sure, but literally every Star Wars movie does. How any of you can come away so disappointed when this is easily in the top half of all 9 Star Wars movies is laughable.

Also, giving Rian Johnson too much credit. The story is the story. I wonder how some of you would have reacted to the "choices" made in the original trilogy if George Lucas didn't direct them all.

I see your point on giving RJ too much credit, same as JJ got too much blame over time for TFA. Star Wars is and will be a machine. But wasn't that a damn beautiful film, shot wise? I think you could definitely see his touch on the narrative and shooting of the film, more so than usual with these type of tentpoles.

 

[UNIrd]

I see your point on giving RJ too much credit, same as JJ got too much blame over time for TFA. Star Wars is and will be a machine. But wasn't that a damn beautiful film, shot wise? I think you could definitely see his touch on the narrative and shooting of the film, more so than usual with these type of tentpoles.

Absolutely.

Spoiler

The scene where Rey and Kylo team up to fight the red samurais is one of the best looking in the whole series.