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Universal's Cinematic Celebration Night Show

All I’m saying is that an acknowledgement should be made. Disney is a more sophisticated company, and they do things that we take for granted. Some form of recognition should be made.

I am going to step in here right here as I have heard this argument for years and I have the first hand personal experience to say with authority that that is absolutely not true. I am a 35 year veteran of the theme park industry. My wife and I have both spent our careers at both Imagineering and Universal and now our kids are following in our footsteps, working in the industry as well. I can tell you that Universal has every bit the talent and design consideration that Disney has, the budget and the timetables are the ONLY difference. It's NOT about "sophistication". As that would imply that the only thing that leads to sophistication is the level of budget. If you think down that route, you're doing a disservice to all of the creative people who make amazing and incredible things with nothing but good ideas and shoestring budgets. Those people make real magic and THOSE people are the ones who deserve our recognition. Not the other way around. Anything can appear impressive with a ton of money thrown at it, but good ideas stand on their own regardless of equipment or money.

Let's not oversimplify what you are saying. Your original argument was that Disney is better because they use top-shelf equipment and spend money to hide it all from guests.

Yes, on that last point you are right. Disney spends an extraordinary amount on hiding projectors, speakers, and equipment. Sometimes this could be tens of millions to do so. We all know that this incrementally makes the park overall look better. But let's not confuse things here.. the quality of attraction itself is not impacted at all.. especially if it's a show. The key here is that Universal and Disney budget their attractions differently. While Disney sees capital improvements as a net ROI within the resort as a whole, Universal sees each and every attraction as a standalone entity, and each must be successful on its own to be worth it. Disney owns all of their own IPs and properties while Universal licenses almost everything. By doing that, budgets have to be smaller as the risk is much higher. So it is then up to creative to make the best of a smaller budget. And in many cases, David can indeed defeat Goliath when you creatively use the budget for things that make the core experience better.

Now, onto this show, you referenced the equipment Universal is installing - Clay Paky Mythos 2, Supersharpy 2, Robe BMFL ... I'll add in here that it looks like each are in a tempest enclosure. Each one of those lights, if I remember correctly, are all the same exact units used in BOTH World of Color and Fantasmic.

The projectors look like they're the latest laser projectors from either Cristie or Barco. And THOSE are in tempest enclosures as well. Again, same as the latest Disney is using at Rivers of Light and Happily Ever After. The fountains, fireworks, all of the elements all come from the latest and best technology and equipment available.

From a quality of equipment standpoint, they are using the latest and best stuff. So why not give them credit for that? Instead we're going to attack them because you can see it more than at Disney parks?

I'll go on to say that every part of this show has been done right, by teams of people who are dedicated and who care about making it good. I know many of the Thinkwell folk as well and used to work with many of them when I lived in CA - some of them former Imagineers and Universal people. Many of them are superfans and nerds like us. The Universal Entertainment people working on this are top notch as well. You're to get a good show here. This team is the very best.

So yes, poles may be visible, projectors may not have windows, equipment may be seen. But at MOST you can knock them on their aesthetic considerations. To call this "less sophisticated" is just not true and slanderous to the many hard-working people who are dedicated to making this show new and good.
 
I am going to step in here right here as I have heard this argument for years and I have the first hand personal experience to say with authority that that is absolutely not true. I am a 35 year veteran of the theme park industry. My wife and I have both spent our careers at both Imagineering and Universal and now our kids are following in our footsteps, working in the industry as well. I can tell you that Universal has every bit the talent and design consideration that Disney has, the budget and the timetables are the ONLY difference. It's NOT about "sophistication". As that would imply that the only thing that leads to sophistication is the level of budget. If you think down that route, you're doing a disservice to all of the creative people who make amazing and incredible things with nothing but good ideas and shoestring budgets. Those people make real magic and THOSE people are the ones who deserve our recognition. Not the other way around. Anything can appear impressive with a ton of money thrown at it, but good ideas stand on their own regardless of equipment or money.

Let's not oversimplify what you are saying. Your original argument was that Disney is better because they use top-shelf equipment and spend money to hide it all from guests.

Yes, on that last point you are right. Disney spends an extraordinary amount on hiding projectors, speakers, and equipment. Sometimes this could be tens of millions to do so. We all know that this incrementally makes the park overall look better. But let's not confuse things here.. the quality of attraction itself is not impacted at all.. especially if it's a show. The key here is that Universal and Disney budget their attractions differently. While Disney sees capital improvements as a net ROI within the resort as a whole, Universal sees each and every attraction as a standalone entity, and each must be successful on its own to be worth it. Disney owns all of their own IPs and properties while Universal licenses almost everything. By doing that, budgets have to be smaller as the risk is much higher. So it is then up to creative to make the best of a smaller budget. And in many cases, David can indeed defeat Goliath when you creatively use the budget for things that make the core experience better.

Now, onto this show, you referenced the equipment Universal is installing - Clay Paky Mythos 2, Supersharpy 2, Robe BMFL ... I'll add in here that it looks like each are in a tempest enclosure. Each one of those lights, if I remember correctly, are all the same exact units used in BOTH World of Color and Fantasmic.

The projectors look like they're the latest laser projectors from either Cristie or Barco. And THOSE are in tempest enclosures as well. Again, same as the latest Disney is using at Rivers of Light and Happily Ever After. The fountains, fireworks, all of the elements all come from the latest and best technology and equipment available.

From a quality of equipment standpoint, they are using the latest and best stuff. So why not give them credit for that? Instead we're going to attack them because you can see it more than at Disney parks?

I'll go on to say that every part of this show has been done right, by teams of people who are dedicated and who care about making it good. I know many of the Thinkwell folk as well and used to work with many of them when I lived in CA - some of them former Imagineers and Universal people. Many of them are superfans and nerds like us. The Universal Entertainment people working on this are top notch as well. You're to get a good show here. This team is the very best.

So yes, poles may be visible, projectors may not have windows, equipment may be seen. But at MOST you can knock them on their aesthetic considerations. To call this "less sophisticated" is just not true and slanderous to the many hard-working people who are dedicated to making this show new and good.
This was awe inspiring. Just wow.:exclap:
 
I can tell you that Universal has every bit the talent and design consideration that Disney has, the budget and the timetables are the ONLY difference. It's NOT about "sophistication". As that would imply that the only thing that leads to sophistication is the level of budget. If you think down that route, you're doing a disservice to all of the creative people who make amazing and incredible things with nothing but good ideas and shoestring budgets.

Disney has the luxury of a culture that usually recognizes the advantages of taking a holistic approach to show design that remains unmatched. If you compare the infrastructure of Universal’s Islands of Adventure and Disney California Adventure, they’re in different categories altogether.

I never stated that money equates quality, but I did say Disney usually recognizes the value in using top tier equipment for their shows.

Those people make real magic and THOSE people are the ones who deserve our recognition. Not the other way around. Anything can appear impressive with a ton of money thrown at it, but good ideas stand on their own regardless of equipment or money.

Again, I’m not getting into a debate regarding creative superiority. That is subjective and you and I will likely not see eye to eye on this.

Let's not oversimplify what you are saying. Your original argument was that Disney is better because they use top-shelf equipment and spend money to hide it all from guests.

No, my overall argument was that Disney does a lot of work in areas that are often ignored by fans. Anyone can buy equipment, but it takes institutional knowledge to utilize this equipment in a consistent manner across all their properties. I never said Universal used subpar equipment in all their designs, but they are inconsistent.

Yes, on that last point you are right. Disney spends an extraordinary amount on hiding projectors, speakers, and equipment. Sometimes this could be tens of millions to do so. We all know that this incrementally makes the park overall look better. But let's not confuse things here.. the quality of attraction itself is not impacted at all.. especially if it's a show.

Again, I am not going to debate which show you think is subjectively better. I am making an argument on technical merits alone.

By doing that, budgets have to be smaller as the risk is much higher. So it is then up to creative to make the best of a smaller budget. And in many cases, David can indeed defeat Goliath when you creatively use the budget for things that make the core experience better.

Sure, you can take a look at Jurassic Park: The Ride as a good example of this, but this was never the main crux of my argument.

Each one of those lights, if I remember correctly, are all the same exact units used in BOTH World of Color and Fantasmic.

At the moment, World of Color doesn’t use any of those fixtures, but they may after their refurbishment concludes. Fantasmic uses the BMFL. Both are top tier manufacturers, so I understand your overall point. The specific models are ultimately irrelevant in this discussion.

From a quality of equipment standpoint, they are using the latest and best stuff. So why not give them credit for that? Instead we're going to attack them because you can see it more than at Disney parks?

Because the show hasn’t opened? You’re presenting a hypothetical that I never alluded to.

Cinematic used Vari-Lite and Syncrolite fixtures along with Meyer Sound audio - all top tier equipment. But the entire show was poor and maintenance was never kept up.

I'll go on to say that every part of this show has been done right, by teams of people who are dedicated and who care about making it good. I know many of the Thinkwell folk as well and used to work with many of them when I lived in CA - some of them former Imagineers and Universal people. Many of them are superfans and nerds like us. The Universal Entertainment people working on this are top notch as well. You're to get a good show here. This team is the very best.

When have I ever claimed the teams weren’t dedicated? Did you know the last two iterations of Universal Studios Florida’s nighttime show were also designed by Thinkwell? I’ve followed both very, very closely, and if we want to get into subjective waters, I didn’t think both were very good. Thinkwell is a fine company, but Universal is ultimately responsible for the output.

Disney uses design firms too, but much of their work is in house. This - again - goes back to my point about institutional power that has been built with decades of experience.

So yes, poles may be visible, projectors may not have windows, equipment may be seen. But at MOST you can knock them on their aesthetic considerations. To call this "less sophisticated" is just not true and slanderous to the many hard-working people who are dedicated to making this show new and good.

If a company invests in a complex park-wide audio system that foresaw parades and spectaculars 10-15 years into the future, then yes, it is a more advanced product. There’s a reason why when you watched Cinematic from outside of Diagon Alley you still heard the land’s background audio playing.

I appreciate the good dialogue about this.
 
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I am going to step in here right here as I have heard this argument for years and I have the first hand personal experience to say with authority that that is absolutely not true. I am a 35 year veteran of the theme park industry. My wife and I have both spent our careers at both Imagineering and Universal and now our kids are following in our footsteps, working in the industry as well. I can tell you that Universal has every bit the talent and design consideration that Disney has, the budget and the timetables are the ONLY difference. It's NOT about "sophistication". As that would imply that the only thing that leads to sophistication is the level of budget. If you think down that route, you're doing a disservice to all of the creative people who make amazing and incredible things with nothing but good ideas and shoestring budgets. Those people make real magic and THOSE people are the ones who deserve our recognition. Not the other way around. Anything can appear impressive with a ton of money thrown at it, but good ideas stand on their own regardless of equipment or money.

Let's not oversimplify what you are saying. Your original argument was that Disney is better because they use top-shelf equipment and spend money to hide it all from guests.

Yes, on that last point you are right. Disney spends an extraordinary amount on hiding projectors, speakers, and equipment. Sometimes this could be tens of millions to do so. We all know that this incrementally makes the park overall look better. But let's not confuse things here.. the quality of attraction itself is not impacted at all.. especially if it's a show. The key here is that Universal and Disney budget their attractions differently. While Disney sees capital improvements as a net ROI within the resort as a whole, Universal sees each and every attraction as a standalone entity, and each must be successful on its own to be worth it. Disney owns all of their own IPs and properties while Universal licenses almost everything. By doing that, budgets have to be smaller as the risk is much higher. So it is then up to creative to make the best of a smaller budget. And in many cases, David can indeed defeat Goliath when you creatively use the budget for things that make the core experience better.

Now, onto this show, you referenced the equipment Universal is installing - Clay Paky Mythos 2, Supersharpy 2, Robe BMFL ... I'll add in here that it looks like each are in a tempest enclosure. Each one of those lights, if I remember correctly, are all the same exact units used in BOTH World of Color and Fantasmic.

The projectors look like they're the latest laser projectors from either Cristie or Barco. And THOSE are in tempest enclosures as well. Again, same as the latest Disney is using at Rivers of Light and Happily Ever After. The fountains, fireworks, all of the elements all come from the latest and best technology and equipment available.

From a quality of equipment standpoint, they are using the latest and best stuff. So why not give them credit for that? Instead we're going to attack them because you can see it more than at Disney parks?

I'll go on to say that every part of this show has been done right, by teams of people who are dedicated and who care about making it good. I know many of the Thinkwell folk as well and used to work with many of them when I lived in CA - some of them former Imagineers and Universal people. Many of them are superfans and nerds like us. The Universal Entertainment people working on this are top notch as well. You're to get a good show here. This team is the very best.

So yes, poles may be visible, projectors may not have windows, equipment may be seen. But at MOST you can knock them on their aesthetic considerations. To call this "less sophisticated" is just not true and slanderous to the many hard-working people who are dedicated to making this show new and good.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
I am going to step in here right here as I have heard this argument for years and I have the first hand personal experience to say with authority that that is absolutely not true. I am a 35 year veteran of the theme park industry. My wife and I have both spent our careers at both Imagineering and Universal and now our kids are following in our footsteps, working in the industry as well. I can tell you that Universal has every bit the talent and design consideration that Disney has, the budget and the timetables are the ONLY difference. It's NOT about "sophistication". As that would imply that the only thing that leads to sophistication is the level of budget. If you think down that route, you're doing a disservice to all of the creative people who make amazing and incredible things with nothing but good ideas and shoestring budgets. Those people make real magic and THOSE people are the ones who deserve our recognition. Not the other way around. Anything can appear impressive with a ton of money thrown at it, but good ideas stand on their own regardless of equipment or money.

Let's not oversimplify what you are saying. Your original argument was that Disney is better because they use top-shelf equipment and spend money to hide it all from guests.

Yes, on that last point you are right. Disney spends an extraordinary amount on hiding projectors, speakers, and equipment. Sometimes this could be tens of millions to do so. We all know that this incrementally makes the park overall look better. But let's not confuse things here.. the quality of attraction itself is not impacted at all.. especially if it's a show. The key here is that Universal and Disney budget their attractions differently. While Disney sees capital improvements as a net ROI within the resort as a whole, Universal sees each and every attraction as a standalone entity, and each must be successful on its own to be worth it. Disney owns all of their own IPs and properties while Universal licenses almost everything. By doing that, budgets have to be smaller as the risk is much higher. So it is then up to creative to make the best of a smaller budget. And in many cases, David can indeed defeat Goliath when you creatively use the budget for things that make the core experience better.

Now, onto this show, you referenced the equipment Universal is installing - Clay Paky Mythos 2, Supersharpy 2, Robe BMFL ... I'll add in here that it looks like each are in a tempest enclosure. Each one of those lights, if I remember correctly, are all the same exact units used in BOTH World of Color and Fantasmic.

The projectors look like they're the latest laser projectors from either Cristie or Barco. And THOSE are in tempest enclosures as well. Again, same as the latest Disney is using at Rivers of Light and Happily Ever After. The fountains, fireworks, all of the elements all come from the latest and best technology and equipment available.

From a quality of equipment standpoint, they are using the latest and best stuff. So why not give them credit for that? Instead we're going to attack them because you can see it more than at Disney parks?

I'll go on to say that every part of this show has been done right, by teams of people who are dedicated and who care about making it good. I know many of the Thinkwell folk as well and used to work with many of them when I lived in CA - some of them former Imagineers and Universal people. Many of them are superfans and nerds like us. The Universal Entertainment people working on this are top notch as well. You're to get a good show here. This team is the very best.

So yes, poles may be visible, projectors may not have windows, equipment may be seen. But at MOST you can knock them on their aesthetic considerations. To call this "less sophisticated" is just not true and slanderous to the many hard-working people who are dedicated to making this show new and good.

Was there ever a situation where you were working at Universal and your wife was working at Disney and you couldn’t discuss what each of you doing?

Conversation at dinner must have been fascinating in your house.
 
The projectors look like they're the latest laser projectors from either Cristie or Barco. And THOSE are in tempest enclosures as well. Again, same as the latest Disney is using at Rivers of Light and Happily Ever After. The fountains, fireworks, all of the elements all come from the latest and best technology and equipment available.

Just to bring this up, Chrstie should be the ones supplying the Laser Projectors, as they actually announced a partnership between them and UPR back in July of 2016, as Universal goes to them now as the preferred choice for projectors domestically (and that's not mentioning other groups like Holovis, Technomedia, and Wartsila now working with the two in the extended partnership).

Just wanted to throw that out, not in a bad way, but an interesting note for the possible supplier.

And when talking about the fountains, yeah, especially considering that it seems like they are using a French company (can't remember the damn name, but they we're the ones who also supplied for CineSpec on the water-walls) who's track record has been rather great too.

I am going to step in here right here as I have heard this argument for years and I have the first hand personal experience to say with authority that that is absolutely not true. I am a 35 year veteran of the theme park industry. My wife and I have both spent our careers at both Imagineering and Universal and now our kids are following in our footsteps, working in the industry as well. I can tell you that Universal has every bit the talent and design consideration that Disney has, the budget and the timetables are the ONLY difference. It's NOT about "sophistication". As that would imply that the only thing that leads to sophistication is the level of budget. If you think down that route, you're doing a disservice to all of the creative people who make amazing and incredible things with nothing but good ideas and shoestring budgets. Those people make real magic and THOSE people are the ones who deserve our recognition. Not the other way around. Anything can appear impressive with a ton of money thrown at it, but good ideas stand on their own regardless of equipment or money.

Let's not oversimplify what you are saying. Your original argument was that Disney is better because they use top-shelf equipment and spend money to hide it all from guests.

Yes, on that last point you are right. Disney spends an extraordinary amount on hiding projectors, speakers, and equipment. Sometimes this could be tens of millions to do so. We all know that this incrementally makes the park overall look better. But let's not confuse things here.. the quality of attraction itself is not impacted at all.. especially if it's a show. The key here is that Universal and Disney budget their attractions differently. While Disney sees capital improvements as a net ROI within the resort as a whole, Universal sees each and every attraction as a standalone entity, and each must be successful on its own to be worth it. Disney owns all of their own IPs and properties while Universal licenses almost everything. By doing that, budgets have to be smaller as the risk is much higher. So it is then up to creative to make the best of a smaller budget. And in many cases, David can indeed defeat Goliath when you creatively use the budget for things that make the core experience better.

Now, onto this show, you referenced the equipment Universal is installing - Clay Paky Mythos 2, Supersharpy 2, Robe BMFL ... I'll add in here that it looks like each are in a tempest enclosure. Each one of those lights, if I remember correctly, are all the same exact units used in BOTH World of Color and Fantasmic.

The projectors look like they're the latest laser projectors from either Cristie or Barco. And THOSE are in tempest enclosures as well. Again, same as the latest Disney is using at Rivers of Light and Happily Ever After. The fountains, fireworks, all of the elements all come from the latest and best technology and equipment available.

From a quality of equipment standpoint, they are using the latest and best stuff. So why not give them credit for that? Instead we're going to attack them because you can see it more than at Disney parks?

I'll go on to say that every part of this show has been done right, by teams of people who are dedicated and who care about making it good. I know many of the Thinkwell folk as well and used to work with many of them when I lived in CA - some of them former Imagineers and Universal people. Many of them are superfans and nerds like us. The Universal Entertainment people working on this are top notch as well. You're to get a good show here. This team is the very best.

So yes, poles may be visible, projectors may not have windows, equipment may be seen. But at MOST you can knock them on their aesthetic considerations. To call this "less sophisticated" is just not true and slanderous to the many hard-working people who are dedicated to making this show new and good.

:exclap:
 
As much as I admire the creatives at Universal, you have to admit that they have created some unworthy stinker night shows in the past. They aren’t without prior faults on a number of fronts from entertainment to attractions.

Universals best content comes when working with others. (WB, Thinkwell, outside writers, etc)
 
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