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Universal's Epic Universe Wish List & Speculation

  • Thread starter Thread starter Brian G.
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PerceptiveCoot

PerceptiveCoot

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DodgsonHere said:
Fine by me. I would love an attraction with a creepy slow burn queue, preshow, and ride beginning, with a sudden explosion of energy. I feel like that would satisfy fans and public.
Click to expand...
You're basically describing the pacing for most dark rides built during the last decade.
 
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shiekra38

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The kinetics of the other lands would have definitely been a stark contrast to a kinetic-less Monsters land

The best lands have the best kinetics

Coasters are a way to add some energy while also creating something rideable
 
belloq87

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I don't think anybody has suggested that the dark ride shouldn't be intense and/or high energy once it gets going. I've said for a couple years that I hope it's tonally along the lines of the Dementors scene from Forbidden Journey, which I think is the most viscerally intense sequence of that experience. Push it even a bit further, frankly.

But the idea that the entire land itself has to be more "amped up," or "extreme," or "kinetic" is certainly debatable. Some people value atmosphere more than others, and it certainly doesn't seem out of bounds to think that an area devoted to classic horror films might prioritize mood and tone in its environments as a contrast to the other lands of the park, which will be more outwardly dynamic.

Is that not a reasonable position?
 
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DodgsonHere

DodgsonHere

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PerceptiveCoot said:
You're basically describing the pacing for most dark rides built during the last decade.
Click to expand...
Ha, guess I am.
 
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fryoj

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belloq87 said:
I don't think anybody has suggested that the dark ride shouldn't be intense and/or high energy once it gets going. I've said for a couple years that I hope it's tonally along the lines of the Dementors scene from Forbidden Journey, which I think is the most viscerally intense sequence of that experience. Push it even a bit further, frankly.

But the idea that the entire land itself has to be more "amped up," or "extreme," or "kinetic" is certainly debatable. Some people value atmosphere more than others, and it certainly doesn't seem out of bounds to think that an area devoted to classic horror films might prioritize mood and tone in its environments as a contrast to the other lands of the park, which will be more outwardly dynamic.

Is that not a reasonable position?
Click to expand...

Have they actually announced this land is devoted to the classic movies? You can use classic monsters without it being based on the classic movies.
 
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Casper Gutman

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shiekra38 said:
The best lands have the best kinetics
Click to expand...

I mean, this really isn't true at all. Diagon is the best land at Universal, perhaps in all of Orlando, and it has no kinetics. The best lands, Harambe and Pandora, in Disney's best themed park, AK, have no kinetics. WDW's Adventureland had no (or very limited) kinetics and I don't think anyone would argue it was improved by the addition of the flying carpets spinner - nor was Dinoland hurt by the removal of the wild mouse. It would be hard to argue that Hogsmeade would be hurt by the removal of Hipograf. And so on.

Kinetics are a tool that can be deployed well or badly, that may be appropriate or inappropriate given the specific context. The fact that they are being added to Monster Land after the fact and not integrated into the fundamental design of the area is cause for concern.
 
belloq87

belloq87

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fryoj said:
Have they actually announced this land is devoted to the classic movies? You can use classic monsters without it being based on the classic movies.
Click to expand...

Well, therein lies what is sort of my central (potential) qualm.
 
OrlandoGuy

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  • Oct 30, 2022
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Casper Gutman said:
I don't think anyone expects tremendous faithfulness to the 1930s original and I REALLY don't think there's much concern for any kind of franchise-wide canon. I expect some knowing winks and a tone much closer to grim grinning ghosts then anything Tod Browning directed (although, to be fair, the tone I just described isn't that far from something James Whale would have directed!) Heck, when I rue the lost show, what I'm picturing is a more polished, more spectacular version of the Beetlejuice show at the Studios. Its a balancing act to be sure, but I trust Universal. That said...

A tonal clash isn't why I'm leery of a small naked coaster. I'm leery of a small naked coaster because they're generally not that interesting or unique and because I think Universal needs to move away from them (not entirely, of course) and towards more all-ages dark rides.

Tone, even a more subdued one, as an emphasis in theme park attractions absolutely can work. The first third of the greatest theme park ride ever built, Disneyland's Pirates, is all about establishing a mournful, foreboding tone - a "slow-burn" leading into the chaos of the second third. In fact, many of Disney's best rides focus much more on modulating tone then they do on narrative. Even at this year's HHN, the best house, hands down, was one that emphasized tone above all else. So while I don't expect it, some portion of the ride spent building a more traditional tone before exploding into action would not be unprecedented or undesirable.

Finally, SOMETHING about the classic movies really sells to modern audiences, because Universal is increasingly making them central to its identity, sells piles of merchandise based off the original 30s and 40s versions, and is dedicating a fourth of the new park to them. This isn't Francis the Talking Mule or Ma and Pa Kettle - this is the very rare Universal property that has continued to appeal to audiences for close to a century. Some combination of elements within the IPs keeps them relevant to a significant population. Maintaining those elements while expanding the appeal to a general audience is Uni's challenge.
Click to expand...

This is a GREAT post, but I wonder if you give too much credit to the general theme park-going public, specifically the majority of UO’s audience, in your argument here.

I would agree Pirates does an incredible job of demonstrating tone and exists on a higher plane compared to most attractions in its pacing, structure, etc. It’s proof that a slow narrative CAN translate to a theme park ride.

The problem is, I don’t think anyone really wants that anymore. When Pirates originally opened, the term “amusement park” was synonymous with carnival junk. Disneyland was obviously not carnival junk…it was an elevated form of art that created its own product category. People went for the art of the show.

Fast forward to today and “amusement parks” or “theme parks” could refer to any number of safe, family-friendly, and in some cases well themed collection of thrill rides. It’s not just Disney and the local fair—it’s Disney, Universal, Cedar Point, Six Flags, Dollywood, Knott’s, etc. They all have varying degrees of cleanliness, atmosphere, attention to detail, etc., but what unites them under these singular umbrella terms are one main thing, and it’s not “art”…it’s thrill rides.

That’s why I don’t think Universal will ever build a GMR-style classic movie ride. It’s just not what people are looking for. Sure, those same people still go on Pirates. Haunted Mansion, etc. but it’s not what’s driving them to the parks and I’d argue a lot of the fandom is built from nostalgia. By the time the UOR was built, theme parks were synonymous with “any place you can ride thrilling rides,” 40-some years after Disneyland first opened.

Universal doesn’t have the same hyper-critical audience Disney does—NBC isn’t putting out multi-part documentary series on the craft of theming or writing blog posts about the details on a rock sculpture they spent $1 million creating. What UO offers its guests is the ability to ride viscerally thrilling attractions with environments/characters they’re familiar with from popular IP. As someone who’s only vaguely familiar with the monsters IP (like the majority of people who will be targeted to buy tickets to EU), I would hear “classic monsters ride” and assume it’ll be something fun, wild, and scary. Im sure a moody, brooding, static atmosphere would be intriguing, but ultimately not the point of my visit.

All that to say, I agree with what you’re saying, I just think that conceptually it’s 30 years or so late.
 
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belloq87

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OrlandoGuy said:
This is a GREAT post, but I wonder if you give too much credit to the general theme park-going public, specifically the majority of UO’s audience, in your argument here.

I would agree Pirates does an incredible job of demonstrating tone and exists on a higher plane compared to most attractions in its pacing, structure, etc. It’s proof that a slow narrative CAN translate to a theme park ride.

The problem is, I don’t think anyone really wants that anymore. When Pirates originally opened, the term “amusement park” was synonymous with carnival junk. Disneyland was obviously not carnival junk…it was an elevated form of art that created its own product category. People went for the art of the show.

Fast forward to today and “amusement parks” or “theme parks” could refer to any number of safe, family-friendly, and in some cases well themed collection of thrill rides. It’s not just Disney and the local fair—it’s Disney, Universal, Cedar Point, Six Flags, Dollywood, Knott’s, etc. They all have varying degrees of cleanliness, atmosphere, attention to detail, etc., but what unites them under these singular umbrella terms are one main thing, and it’s not “art”…it’s thrill rides.

That’s why I don’t think Universal will ever build a GMR-style classic movie ride. It’s just not what people are looking for. Sure, those same people still go on Pirates. Haunted Mansion, etc. but it’s not what’s driving them to the parks and I’d argue a lot of the fandom is built from nostalgia. By the time the UOR was built, theme parks were synonymous with “any place you can ride thrilling rides,” 40-some years after Disneyland first opened.

Universal doesn’t have the same hyper-critical audience Disney does—NBC isn’t putting out multi-part documentary series on the craft of theming or writing blog posts about the details on a rock sculpture they spent $1 million creating. What UO offers its guests is the ability to ride viscerally thrilling attractions with environments/characters they’re familiar with from popular IP. As someone who’s only vaguely familiar with the monsters IP (like the majority of people who will be targeted to buy tickets to EU), I would hear “classic monsters ride” and assume it’ll be something fun, wild, and scary. Im sure a moody, brooding, static atmosphere would be intriguing, but ultimately not the point of my visit.

All that to say, I agree with what you’re saying, I just think that conceptually it’s 30 years or so late.
Click to expand...

Well, now I'm depressed!
 
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OhHaiInternet95

OhHaiInternet95

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  • Oct 30, 2022
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OrlandoGuy said:
This is a GREAT post, but I wonder if you give too much credit to the general theme park-going public, specifically the majority of UO’s audience, in your argument here.

I would agree Pirates does an incredible job of demonstrating tone and exists on a higher plane compared to most attractions in its pacing, structure, etc. It’s proof that a slow narrative CAN translate to a theme park ride.

The problem is, I don’t think anyone really wants that anymore. When Pirates originally opened, the term “amusement park” was synonymous with carnival junk. Disneyland was obviously not carnival junk…it was an elevated form of art that created its own product category. People went for the art of the show.

Fast forward to today and “amusement parks” or “theme parks” could refer to any number of safe, family-friendly, and in some cases well themed collection of thrill rides. It’s not just Disney and the local fair—it’s Disney, Universal, Cedar Point, Six Flags, Dollywood, Knott’s, etc. They all have varying degrees of cleanliness, atmosphere, attention to detail, etc., but what unites them under these singular umbrella terms are one main thing, and it’s not “art”…it’s thrill rides.

That’s why I don’t think Universal will ever build a GMR-style classic movie ride. It’s just not what people are looking for. Sure, those same people still go on Pirates. Haunted Mansion, etc. but it’s not what’s driving them to the parks and I’d argue a lot of the fandom is built from nostalgia. By the time the UOR was built, theme parks were synonymous with “any place you can ride thrilling rides,” 40-some years after Disneyland first opened.

Universal doesn’t have the same hyper-critical audience Disney does—NBC isn’t putting out multi-part documentary series on the craft of theming or writing blog posts about the details on a rock sculpture they spent $1 million creating. What UO offers its guests is the ability to ride viscerally thrilling attractions with environments/characters they’re familiar with from popular IP. As someone who’s only vaguely familiar with the monsters IP (like the majority of people who will be targeted to buy tickets to EU), I would hear “classic monsters ride” and assume it’ll be something fun, wild, and scary. Im sure a moody, brooding, static atmosphere would be intriguing, but ultimately not the point of my visit.

All that to say, I agree with what you’re saying, I just think that conceptually it’s 30 years or so late.
Click to expand...

I laugh whenever someone argues that the most popular attractions at WDW are original attractions. Yeah, because they’re grandfathered in. None of those would get good GSATs if built today.

Having said that, there is great potential for Monsters land to tell an original story with the property.
 
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Henny

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I would argue that Diagon Alley has a LOT of kinetics. All the interactive wand elements, the fire breathing Dragon at the center view of the land and the outdoors stage performances all create for a high energy atmosphere.

Universal has a unique challenge to undertake with Epic Universe. We all know they're more than capable of creating an immersive land. But all these lands that they successfully brought to life before are located in theme parks that weren't started with the same commitment to immersion.
EU is different in that ALL of it's lands are designed to be immersive bubbles, and one of the challenges that this imposes is how to incorporate all the rides into the theming of each land. I believe a balance can be found. But I also think it will be easier to do so for some of the lands like Nintendo where the rides are directly inspired by the games, and less so for Monsters where the original source has tones that are hard to translate into rides, experiences and an overall land. Personally I would love for a dark, eerie and dreary interpretation, but I also admit that going this direction would be a flop for a land aimed at families. I'm just glad it doesn't seem like they're going for the campy direction. Now THAT would've been really disappointing.
 
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Casper Gutman

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OhHaiInternet95 said:
I laugh whenever someone argues that the most popular attractions at WDW are original attractions. Yeah, because they’re grandfathered in. None of those would get good GSATs if built today.

Having said that, there is great potential for Monsters land to tell an original story with the property.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but this is madness. Pirates and Haunted and Splash aren't beloved because they're old, they're beloved because they're masterpieces. Very few Disney visitors care deeply about the park's history, and fewer still are going to use it as an excuse to give an attraction higher marks on a satisfaction survey. If you built Pirates for the first time today it would score just as highly.

The idea that the theme park audience has changed in some profound, fundamental way is exactly as valid as any old man grumbling about "kids in my day..." It's a version of the same misconception that led Eisner to destroy EPCOT back in the 90s and it betrays a lack of basic cultural history knowledge. The truth is that coasters have always drawn audiences and have always been easy to build. What made Disney into an unprecedentedly successful resort - and what might do the same for Universal - are immersive, mostly indoor rides that mix skillfully modulated tone and well-told stories, presented through a variety of mediums, including elaborately set stages and advanced AAs. Building such attractions requires a tremendous level of genuine artistry - and audiences respond positively to that artistry, regardless of the year.
 
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OrlLover

OrlLover

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OrlandoGuy said:
This is a GREAT post, but I wonder if you give too much credit to the general theme park-going public, specifically the majority of UO’s audience, in your argument here.

I would agree Pirates does an incredible job of demonstrating tone and exists on a higher plane compared to most attractions in its pacing, structure, etc. It’s proof that a slow narrative CAN translate to a theme park ride.

The problem is, I don’t think anyone really wants that anymore. When Pirates originally opened, the term “amusement park” was synonymous with carnival junk. Disneyland was obviously not carnival junk…it was an elevated form of art that created its own product category. People went for the art of the show.

Fast forward to today and “amusement parks” or “theme parks” could refer to any number of safe, family-friendly, and in some cases well themed collection of thrill rides. It’s not just Disney and the local fair—it’s Disney, Universal, Cedar Point, Six Flags, Dollywood, Knott’s, etc. They all have varying degrees of cleanliness, atmosphere, attention to detail, etc., but what unites them under these singular umbrella terms are one main thing, and it’s not “art”…it’s thrill rides.

That’s why I don’t think Universal will ever build a GMR-style classic movie ride. It’s just not what people are looking for. Sure, those same people still go on Pirates. Haunted Mansion, etc. but it’s not what’s driving them to the parks and I’d argue a lot of the fandom is built from nostalgia. By the time the UOR was built, theme parks were synonymous with “any place you can ride thrilling rides,” 40-some years after Disneyland first opened.

Universal doesn’t have the same hyper-critical audience Disney does—NBC isn’t putting out multi-part documentary series on the craft of theming or writing blog posts about the details on a rock sculpture they spent $1 million creating. What UO offers its guests is the ability to ride viscerally thrilling attractions with environments/characters they’re familiar with from popular IP. As someone who’s only vaguely familiar with the monsters IP (like the majority of people who will be targeted to buy tickets to EU), I would hear “classic monsters ride” and assume it’ll be something fun, wild, and scary. Im sure a moody, brooding, static atmosphere would be intriguing, but ultimately not the point of my visit.

All that to say, I agree with what you’re saying, I just think that conceptually it’s 30 years or so late.
Click to expand...
I’ve said this before that a GMR style ride would be considered very outdated if built today. I don’t think the GP outlook on theme parks has changed by leaps and bounds but certain attractions are very much of their time period.
 
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belloq87

belloq87

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Henny said:
I'm just glad it doesn't seem like they're going for the campy direction. Now THAT would've been really disappointing.
Click to expand...

I mean, you say that, and I very much hope you're right, but the rumored "story" of the land and dark ride from Screamscape -- as well as some of the leaked concept art (which could absolutely be outdated, certainly) -- doesn't fully remove camp from the list of tonal possibilities.
 
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Legacy

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Casper Gutman said:
I'm sorry, but this is madness. Pirates and Haunted and Splash aren't beloved because they're old, they're beloved because they're masterpieces. Very few Disney visitors care deeply about the park's history, and fewer still are going to use it as an excuse to give an attraction higher marks on a satisfaction survey. If you built Pirates for the first time today it would score just as highly.

The idea that the theme park audience has changed in some profound, fundamental way is exactly as valid as any old man grumbling about "kids in my day..." It's a version of the same misconception that led Eisner to destroy EPCOT back in the 90s and it betrays a lack of basic cultural history knowledge. The truth is that coasters have always drawn audiences and have always been easy to build. What made Disney into an unprecedentedly successful resort - and what might do the same for Universal - are immersive, mostly indoor rides that mix skillfully modulated tone and well-told stories, presented through a variety of mediums, including elaborately set stages and advanced AAs. Building such attractions requires a tremendous level of genuine artistry - and audiences respond positively to that artistry, regardless of the year.
Click to expand...
Is that why, before they Pirates movies came out and they started aligning the attraction to the films it was always a walk-on from entrance to load? Seriously, in the 90s I don’t I think ever waited more than 5 minutes to ride it.

Honestly, Pirates is a great example of how audiences change. The ride “is a masterpiece” but wasn’t so popular Disney felt it untouchable. They added Jack Sparrow and “proved” guests want IP tie-ins. Then, when they had the opportunity to built a ride with Jack Sparrow from scratch—they didn’t go with a slow-moving masterpiece—they went with Spider-Man on water.

And Beijing doesn’t miss it, even despite knowing what they’re missing.
 
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Casper Gutman

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Legacy said:
Is that why, before they Pirates movies came out and they started aligning the attraction to the films it was always a walk-on from entrance to load? Seriously, in the 90s I don’t I think ever waited more than 5 minutes to ride it.

Honestly, Pirates is a great example of how audiences change. The ride “is a masterpiece” but wasn’t so popular Disney felt it untouchable. They added Jack Sparrow and “proved” guests want IP tie-ins. Then, when they had the opportunity to built a ride with Jack Sparrow from scratch—they didn’t go with a slow-moving masterpiece—they went with Spider-Man on water.

And Beijing doesn’t miss it, even despite knowing what they’re missing.
Click to expand...
Come on. I visited the parks very, very often in the 90s. EVERY ride had times when they were a walk-on. The crowds were minimal compared to today. And we REALLY shouldn't look to Disney's management over the last 20 years for any kind of accurate gauge of the artistic worth or even the popularity of a given ride.

After making Pirates the cornerstone of Adventureland in California, Orlando, Tokyo, and Paris, they skipped Hong Kong (for political reasons, I believe) and put a different version in Shanghai. They replaced the old slow-moving boat ride with... a different slow moving boat ride.
 
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Legacy

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Casper Gutman said:
Come on. I visited the parks very, very often in the 90s. EVERY ride had times when they were a walk-on. The crowds were minimal compared to today. And we REALLY shouldn't look to Disney's management over the last 20 years for any kind of accurate gauge of the artistic worth or even the popularity of a given ride.

After making Pirates the cornerstone of Adventureland in California, Orlando, Tokyo, and Paris, they skipped Hong Kong (for political reasons, I believe) and put a different version in Shanghai. They replaced the old slow-moving boat ride with... a different slow moving boat ride.
Click to expand...
Except Shanghai doesn’t feel slow. It’s visceral and intense in a way old Pirates could never be.

The vast majority of theme park-goers, if they experienced all versions, nostalgia wiped clean, and had to choose, would likely to pick Shanghai as their favorite Pirates. Because tastes have shifted.

Universal knows it.
 
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tielo

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Yes yes, Disney is amazing, Universal isn't Disney, can we keep it on topic please.
 
quinnmac000

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Legacy said:
Except Shanghai doesn’t feel slow. It’s visceral and intense in a way old Pirates could never be.

The vast majority of theme park-goers, if they experienced all versions, nostalgia wiped clean, and had to choose, would likely to pick Shanghai as their favorite Pirates. Because tastes have shifted.

Universal knows it.
Click to expand...

I think the argument is audiences in the past were okay with simplicity in visuals/design whereas audiences today require complexity.

The argument really isn't fast thrilling etc...but more so the old rides have a very strong simplicity to them whereas the new attractions are essentially Cocomelon...keep your eyes focused a new element every 5 seconds to keep you entertained.
 
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fryoj

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We'll see how the classics fare as todays young adults and teens grow into older adults and grandparents. When todays older adults and grandparents were growing up, pirates, mansion, etc, were high tech and blew people's minds. They aren't that any more. So those growing up now aren't going to look at them as fondly.
 
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