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WandaVision

  • Thread starter Thread starter Viator
  • Start date Start date Sep 20, 2020
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Nick

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  • Mar 7, 2021
  • #501
Tbad556 said:
I've been thinking and wouldn't this go against the whole mindset of "the shows are nonessential to the movies"? How do you explain the Bohner/Quicksilver mess in the movies without watching the show? Either the quote was more of a throwaway than serious (which is possible since the show explains things such as Monica and the skrulls interacting) or Evan Peters was quite literally stunt casted for a boner joke :lol:
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I mean, there's probably a way they could explain it... but yeah, he was probably just cast for the joke. My expectations on Tobey and Andrew for SM3 are now just "expect boner joke, hope for better" :lol:
 
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Legacy

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  • #502
Tbad556 said:
I've been thinking and wouldn't this go against the whole mindset of "the shows are nonessential to the movies"? How do you explain the Bohner/Quicksilver mess in the movies without watching the show? Either the quote was more of a throwaway than serious (which is possible since the show explains things such as Monica and the skrulls interacting) or Evan Peters was quite literally stunt casted for a boner joke :lol:
Click to expand...
I’d argue Monica becoming Photon/Spectrum can easily be “explained” in Captain Marvel 2, especially because (to our knowledge) Marvel hasn’t seen Monica since she was a child. It’s been 25-some-odd years. Monica displays her powers, Marvel displays shock that she has powers, Monica angrily looks at Marvel and says, “There’s a lot you missed.” Throw in a scene where Monica/Fury/Marvel are debriefing each other, name-drop Romanov, done.
 
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Nick

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  • #503
Legacy said:
I’d argue Monica becoming Photon/Spectrum can easily be “explained” in Captain Marvel 2, especially because (to our knowledge) Marvel hasn’t seen Monica since she was a child. It’s been 25-some-odd years. Monica displays her powers, Marvel displays shock that she has powers, Monica angrily looks at Marvel and says, “There’s a lot you missed.” Through in a scene where Monica/Fury/Marvel are debriefing each other, name-drop Romanov, done.
Click to expand...
Yup. For as much that we watched in WandaVision, it's actually not a lot in the scope of a movie. Just like you said, a simple scene where Monica comes in, kicks some ass and shows off her powers, Carol says something extremely simple like "Monica?" and Monica replies "I've done a lot of growing up since you last saw me". Literally a few sentences to recap everything.

If they wanted to bring back Ralph as Quicksilver, then it would just take a short exposition scene to introduce him and the backstory (which normally, we wouldn't see anyway without a Disney+ show existing to show us).
 
Legacy

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Nick said:
If they wanted to bring back Ralph as Quicksilver, then it would just take a short exposition scene to introduce him and the backstory (which normally, we wouldn't see anyway without a Disney+ show existing to show us).
Click to expand...
Narratively, WV smartly “resets” Wanda’s perception of who Ralph/Pietro is. If he’s reintroduced as a multiverse Quicksilver, Wanda’s immediate response WILL be, “That’s not my brother.” She’ll be correct, within the context of the multiverse and WV. More importantly, it sets up a narrative where Wanda has to reconcile who Ralph/Pietro is in either/both contexts.

The only loophole then becomes, “How did Ralph get there in the first place?” And even that is “easily” explained by saying Wanda accidentally “pulled” him into our reality, which Agnes alluded to with her whole “you have no idea what you’ve unleashed,” and he gets sent “back” when the Hex falls.
 
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Jerroddragon

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Nick said:
It's hard to love a character that died in the same movie he was introduced (and died stupidly, imo - why did he take the bullets for Hawkeye instead of using his speed to push him out of they way, saving them both?)

Anyway, people loved Evan Peters' version of Quicksilver. I don't see a villain type of thing because he'd be so low-tier, Wanda knows he's not her brother and she's so powerful now what's the point?
Click to expand...
I mean...Yando is in two films..but I didn't love him until film two and got sad he died. There are films where someone can die and you be said..but yeah an Avengers films has too many people for that to work most of the times. Hell two characters died in Endgame and people are really only sad about one of them...lol

Also Quicksilver MCU would be the villain if he came back not the Fox Version. Wanda having to defeat her brother from another timeline would be hard for her...so could see him coming back in the next Wanda show/movie after Dr Strange 2.


Last point as well my friends and I were talking one asked if they needed to watch the show and one friend said its fine...and I'm like ohhh so he's just going to accept a dead character back with a sentence, not understand why Wanda is doing what she is in Dr Strange, have no idea how Rambo got powers and not see all the secret wars hints. I don't know I still argue while you can watch the MCU movies only....I think they will all have like 3-5 things that effect movies so yes you can get the shows spoiled for you or watch the entire story and get it more. I can explain the story of this in like two paragraphs but you won't get the emotions of what the characters are going though or get to hear Visions 2 awesome Philosophy speeches.
 
Nick

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  • #506
Jerroddragon said:
I mean...Yando is in two films..but I didn't love him until film two and got sad he died. There are films where someone can die and you be said..but yeah an Avengers films has too many people for that to work most of the times. Hell two characters died in Endgame and people are really only sad about one of them...lol

Also Quicksilver MCU would be the villain if he came back not the Fox Version. Wanda having to defeat her brother from another timeline would be hard for her...so could see him coming back in the next Wanda show/movie after Dr Strange 2.


Last point as well my friends and I were talking one asked if they needed to watch the show and one friend said its fine...and I'm like ohhh so he's just going to accept a dead character back with a sentence, not understand why Wanda is doing what she is in Dr Strange, have no idea how Rambo got powers and not see all the secret wars hints. I don't know I still argue while you can watch the MCU movies only....I think they will all have like 3-5 things that effect movies so yes you can get the shows spoiled for you or watch the entire story and get it more. I can explain the story of this in like two paragraphs but you won't get the emotions of what the characters are going though or get to hear Visions 2 awesome Philosophy speeches.
Click to expand...
Well yeah. It’s not a bad thing that the events of WandaVision can be summed up in a few quick sentences of dialogue. It’s just what it is.

WandaVision helped provide a lot of extra depth to her character, so if you did watch it, I think it only enhances your viewing experience.
 
Brian G.

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  • #507
*Cracks Knuckles*

So now that we've got all the answers - the pacing still remained the biggest issue. They went for the big finale with all the bells and whistles, feeling overstuffed at times - and causing quick, unsatisfying conclusions for the side characters. The stuff I enjoyed was everything outside of the flying fights, especially the Vision vs Vision debate.

There is a lot of good with the series, though; especially with Wanda and Vision. Those 2 characters benefited tenfold from a TV show, fleshing out their stories, and you could really feel the love and pain surrounding the relationship.

Everyone else was a dud, other than Agatha.

Before anything, I don't care that there was no "BIG" reveal like Mr. Fantasic or an X-Men character, but Peters as Pietro turning out to be stunt casting is a damn shame. Marvel knew what his casting would do and baited viewers to speculate. After his appearance in Ep. 6, he basically disappeared, leaving a lack of real closure between Wanda and Fietro. It's one thing to subvert expectations, it's another to toy with them.

The other big issue is Hayward, who besides being poorly written throughout the whole show, actually wasn't very wrong in trying to get through and stop Wanda. What she was doing, even though we fully understand her grief, was still wrong (and they kinda let her off the hook?.....) - but they don't give any intel to his motivations. Him taking aim at the kids felt like they were just trying to make him unmistakeably bad without having to explain it.

Agatha wasn't wrong, either. She said Wanda was dangerous, which she was, and has a history of her powers getting the best of her. Also, them saying it was Agatha All Along was another bait n switch, because it wasn't even her at all (So why did Wanda say "You think this is all me" at the end of Episode 5?)

After being a standout for most of the series, Monica sorta petered out, I guess because they wanted to keep most of that for CM2.

White Vision showed up for the plot and left for the plot - which also left an out for Marvel to bring him back, which goes back to a big issue of the lack of stakes in the MCU.

And they never did say anything about the person they were searching for in witness protection.

Seems like they had a lot of good ideas but didn't know how to come to a satisfying conclusion outside of Wanda's arc.
 
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Nick

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  • #508
Brian G. said:
*Cracks Knuckles*

So now that we've got all the answers - the pacing still remained the biggest issue. They went for the big finale with all the bells and whistles, feeling overstuffed at times - and causing quick, unsatisfying conclusions for the side characters. The stuff I enjoyed was everything outside of the flying fights, especially the Vision vs Vision debate.

There is a lot of good with the series, though; especially with Wanda and Vision. Those 2 characters benefited tenfold from a TV show, fleshing out their stories, and you could really feel the love and pain surrounding the relationship.

Everyone else was a dud, other than Agatha.

Before anything, I don't care that there was no "BIG" reveal like Mr. Fantasic or an X-Men character, but Peters as Pietro turning out to be stunt casting is a damn shame. Marvel knew what his casting would do and baited viewers to speculate. After his appearance in Ep. 6, he basically disappeared, leaving a lack of real closure between Wanda and Fietro. It's one thing to subvert expectations, it's another to toy with them.

The other big issue is Hayward, who besides being poorly written throughout the whole show, actually wasn't very wrong in trying to get through and stop Wanda. What she was doing, even though we fully understand her grief, was still wrong (and they kinda let her off the hook?.....) - but they don't give any intel to his motivations. Him taking aim at the kids felt like they were just trying to make him unmistakeably bad without having to explain it.

Agatha wasn't wrong, either. She said Wanda was dangerous, which she was, and has a history of her powers getting the best of her. Also, them saying it was Agatha All Along was another bait n switch, because it wasn't even her at all (So why did Wanda say "You think this is all me" at the end of Episode 5?)

After being a standout for most of the series, Monica sorta petered out, I guess because they wanted to keep most of that for CM2.

White Vision showed up for the plot and left for the plot - which also left an out for Marvel to bring him back, which goes back to a big issue of the lack of stakes in the MCU.

And they never did say anything about the person they were searching for in witness protection.

Seems like they had a lot of good ideas but didn't know how to come to a satisfying conclusion outside of Wanda's arc.
Click to expand...
I agree with most everything except them letting Wanda escape. She flew away right as they were coming in for her, they really couldn’t stop her (hell she would have killed them all before she was stopped by SWORD).

I agree Hayward was in the right though, he just was a bit of a d-bag about it.
 
Brian G.

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  • Mar 8, 2021
  • #509
Nick said:
I agree with most everything except them letting Wanda escape. She flew away right as they were coming in for her, they really couldn’t stop her (hell she would have killed them all before she was stopped by SWORD).

I agree Hayward was in the right though, he just was a bit of a d-bag about it.
Click to expand...

I guess. I mostly was talking about Monica saying "Yeah, I get it. We're good". :lol:
 
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Nick

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  • #510
Brian G. said:
I guess. I mostly was talking about Monica saying "Yeah, I get it. We're good". :lol:
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If we’re talking about things Monica said, I take issue with the line “They’ll never know how much you sacrificed”.

What exactly did she lose? To me, Wanda came out of this stronger than ever and with more than she had before.

- She’s now *officially* the Scarlet Witch with a hold on the Darkhold.
- A physical form of Vision seems to be back outside of the Hex.
- And she seems to already be working on bringing her kids back (kids she didn’t even have before the hex).

It seems to me Wanda gained a lot out of imprisoning those people and making them her puppets.
 
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  • Mar 8, 2021
  • #511
Nick said:
If we’re talking about things Monica said, I take issue with the line “They’ll never know how much you sacrificed”.

What exactly did she lose? To me, Wanda came out of this stronger than ever and with more than she had before.

- She’s now *officially* the Scarlet Witch with a hold on the Darkhold.
- A physical form of Vision seems to be back outside of the Hex.
- And she seems to already be working on bringing her kids back (kids she didn’t even have before the hex).

It seems to me Wanda gained a lot out of imprisoning those people and making them her puppets.
Click to expand...

Yuuuup.

The stories of this "hostage" situation are bound to get out in the MCU, so what heroes would wanna work with her after hearing that. You know damn well Capt would be all "Oh, noooo. You're out of the Avengers." :lol: WandaVision only makes more sense if she becomes a villain.
 
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If this was a real scenario, everybody would've known about this situation. NJ ain't that big and you got plenty of people in NYC who'd be curious about what happened.

Overall, I'm going to say I enjoyed the show. I liked the original format more but it devolved in a more standard MCU style.
For people disappointed in the lack of big world implications like mutants or Fantastic Four, the focus was always on Wanda and Vision. In the movies, I think they got the benefit of only being in the major stories to justify why their relationship happened mostly off screen into a rushed romance. Watching this series really made me like them as characters rather than comic book characters that I know their history so I accepted the cinematic shorthand to get where they needed to go. This felt like a longer of those Marvel One-shots they had on the DVDs/Blu rays when the MCU started. And I mean that as a good thing, but sometimes a WandaVision miniseries is only a WandaVision miniseries.

Hayward was an under baked villain and I believe someone on the forum here said it would've made sense if he was a skrull trying to get on powerful tech for their Secret Invasion plot. If the kids don't exist outside the Hex, WHY DO YOU NEED TO SHOOT THE FICTIONAL CHILDREN? Beyond having a military asset that you couldn't fully control or get working in 5 years, why bother with all of this? If Wanda never came back, they still be putting together Vision with a box of scraps.

Agatha was a fun foil and play on the sitcom format as well as requisite "evil mirror of hero so the hero can be defined as being not that." Glad she wasn't killed off because Marvel does that too much, but I don't think she'll be around after this either way.

Agatha was also only an antagonist in the show to Wanda's goals of hiding. When she's infiltrating and chewing scenery through someone's manufactured reality, while selfish for wanting the power, she really isn't the worst person in Westview during any of this.

Kat Dennings was in it. I'm not sure what purpose she had. She mind as well been an official podcast host that talks about the show in universe and would've had that same amount of impact to the story.

Randal Park was entertaining and my new theory is that he will eventually do a magic trick for Dr. Strange. Not really, but it would be funny to me.

Monica is an interesting character but she'll be back in CM2, so let's see where that goes.

Fietro was a huge tease. I wish Agatha explained she saw Quicksilver looking like that somewhere in her magical viewing or something something multiverse to justify taking the Fox Quicksilver, dressing up as Fox Quicksilver and acting like that would be accepted. It only worked in that reality, beyond Wanda's grief, was because we accepted that form of him.

I think this show would've been better off (COVID aside) if it was the second Marvel show as there was so much build up and hope for new content, rather than the much smaller scale character work that the story ended up being.

We all built it up during our lockdowns and drought of movies and expected something mind blowing like Mando S2 finale's cameo. The joke was gobbled up by us and we all fell for it. Next time I'll try to just enjoy the show for what it is.
 
Legacy

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www.huffpost.com

'WandaVision' Director Reveals One Fan Theory Was Just A Hare Off

The Marvel director is about to make some bunny pretty excited with this deleted scene.
www.huffpost.com www.huffpost.com
 
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CoryLevy91

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Nick said:
If we’re talking about things Monica said, I take issue with the line “They’ll never know how much you sacrificed”.

What exactly did she lose?
Click to expand...

Vision. Her children. A stable, fun life without worry. Basically what most every living human being strives for.

She was putting people through pain to achieve them but she had arguably endured tenfold the amount of pain as them.
 
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  • #515
CoryLevy91 said:
Vision. Her children. A stable, fun life without worry. Basically what most every living human being strives for.

She was putting people through pain to achieve them but she had arguably endured tenfold the amount of pain as them.
Click to expand...
A vision and kids that weren’t real. A stable, fun life, that again, wasn’t real. Thats what she “lost” while she held a town hostage.

And guess what? The real Vision is back again with his memories and the kids will be back again too, I’m sure. All the while, she was holding an entire town hostage while she got more powerful.

Once again, what did she lose? Because the way I see it, everything she “lost” was fake by her own creation anyway. Yes, she has lost a lot in life, but in WandaVision, she didn’t lose anything that she didn’t create. And even Vision who she had to kill once and watch die twice is still there as I said.
 
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Legacy

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Nick said:
A vision and kids that weren’t real. A stable, fun life, that again, wasn’t real. Thats what she “lost” while she held a town hostage.

And guess what? The real Vision is back again with his memories and the kids will be back again too, I’m sure. All the while, she was holding an entire town hostage while she got more powerful.

Once again, what did she lose? Because the way I see it, everything she “lost” was fake by her own creation anyway. Yes, she has lost a lot in life, but in WandaVision, she didn’t lose anything that she didn’t create. And even Vision who she had to kill once and watch die twice is still there as I said.
Click to expand...
I think this is a really cynical viewpoint. I understand why people have it, but it’s a stance completely absent the character’s emotional state and growth.

From Wanda’s perspective, it didn’t matter that the life was an illusion/delusion. It was, for the first time since her parents were killed, happiness. It was peaceful. And I think wanting to obtain and keep that feeling after a lifetime of trauma is completely relatable. Facing and accepting grief and loss is a terrifying prospect that people don’t willingly accept. Most people, if they had the ability, would absolutely bring back from the dead people they love and create a perfect, safe world where they can live. A lot of people if given the choice of making other people uncomfortable for the sake of their own happiness, would selfishly choose happiness. Monica says as much. What Wanda chooses, in the end, is personal grief, loss, and trauma for the greater good over her selfish happiness. It’s arguably the most “heroic” act she’s ever made. Yeah, she tortured a town. She also chose to release them once she saw what it was costing them. Because it wasn’t until the final couple of episodes she was fully cognizant of what she had done. Her happiness made her oblivious. That’s actually fairly accurate to addiction, trauma, and grief.

Super hero stories are littered with this exact character conflict. The central character conflict in Raimi’s Spider-Man 1&2, and Iron Man 3, especially, focus on heroes struggling on if they should let the nameless masses suffer so they can find personal peace and happiness. Those films, however, never focus on what that means for the masses. Wanda addresses it directly because Wanda’s powers drastically increase the scale of that conflict. Wanda can bend reality. But emotionally it’s the same story.
 
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Nick

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Legacy said:
I think this is a really cynical viewpoint. I understand why people have it, but it’s a stance completely absent the character’s emotional state and growth.

From Wanda’s perspective, it didn’t matter that the life was an illusion/delusion. It was, for the first time since her parents were killed, happiness. It was peaceful. And I think wanting to obtain and keep that feeling after a lifetime of trauma is completely relatable. Facing and accepting grief and loss is a terrifying prospect that people don’t willingly accept. Most people, if they had the ability, would absolutely bring back from the dead people they love and create a perfect, safe world where they can live. A lot of people if given the choice of making other people uncomfortable for the sake of their own happiness, would selfishly choose happiness. Monica says as much. What Wanda chooses, in the end, is personal grief, loss, and trauma for the greater good over her selfish happiness. It’s arguably the most “heroic” act she’s ever made. Yeah, she tortured a town. She also chose to release them once she saw what it was costing them. Because it wasn’t until the final couple of episodes she was fully cognizant of what she had done. Her happiness made her oblivious. That’s actually fairly accurate to addiction, trauma, and grief.

Super hero stories are littered with this exact character conflict. The central character conflict in Raimi’s Spider-Man 1&2, and Iron Man 3, especially, focus on heroes struggling on if they should let the nameless masses suffer so they can find personal peace and happiness. Those films, however, never focus on what that means for the masses. Wanda addresses it directly because Wanda’s powers drastically increase the scale of that conflict. Wanda can bend reality. But emotionally it’s the same story.
Click to expand...
I get that. I understand her perspective 100%. I even understand that she doesn't actually know White Vision is hanging around somewhere. But it doesn't change my opinion that she didn't actually lose anything. She actually made peace with her loss if we're being honest. The end of the show where the hex wipes out fake vision and the kids... that was Wanda entering the acceptance stage of grief.

For me it's not really an either/or scenario, but more of a both/and. I can recognize her emotional state while also recognizing the pain she put *actual* people through so she could live in a fantasy world and once again, she didn't actually lose anything she didn't have before she created the hex.
 
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Jerroddragon

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If the kids aren't real then why the hell is she in Dr Strange 2?

Also this whole concept of real is just based on what we think. In 100 years your going to tell someone a robot isn't real?

Vision made up of many parts but mainly he is AI in a Robot body...to be like the one Wanda made is less real is kinda silly. He was apart of the mind stone and acted like the Vision we all know...he even reasoned with White Vision. Even if we want to say its all not real....doesn't matter Wanda loved them like they were which is what matters.

Is she is villain still? Yes, not because she created the world but once she knew the truth did nothing to stop it and lied to her self about the pain she was causing. I don't hate her for it...I think I could do the same thing if I lost someone and everyone else came back.
 
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Jerroddragon said:
If the kids aren't real then why the hell is she in Dr Strange 2?
Click to expand...

Honestly, the way I personally interpreted the final post credits scene combined with the title of the next Strange film being Multiverse of Madness would be that some sector of the story will revolve around needing to either find or rescue Wanda from another dimension or universe. That little trickle of hearing her children's voices calling for help leads me to think of it being a trap for her.

I know the general consensus is that Wanda will be full on Scarlet Witch and big bad for Strange 2 but I'm not fully convinced that's automatic. She did villainous things in the show but she paid a price to right them. Agatha seemed aware that Wanda becoming Scarlet Witch would be a very bad deal but Wanda never felt like she was full tilt baddie even in the very last scene she was seen in.

Not saying it's impossible that Scarlet Witch is your villain for MoM, especially since that seems to be the rampant rumor if not straight fact but there's still some big steps that need to be taken for that to happen just from where things seem to be.
 
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CoryLevy91 said:
Honestly, the way I personally interpreted the final post credits scene combined with the title of the next Strange film being Multiverse of Madness would be that some sector of the story will revolve around needing to either find or rescue Wanda from another dimension or universe. That little trickle of hearing her children's voices calling for help leads me to think of it being a trap for her.

I know the general consensus is that Wanda will be full on Scarlet Witch and big bad for Strange 2 but I'm not fully convinced that's automatic. She did villainous things in the show but she paid a price to right them. Agatha seemed aware that Wanda becoming Scarlet Witch would be a very bad deal but Wanda never felt like she was full tilt baddie even in the very last scene she was seen in.

Not saying it's impossible that Scarlet Witch is your villain for MoM, especially since that seems to be the rampant rumor if not straight fact but there's still some big steps that need to be taken for that to happen just from where things seem to be.
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With the embargo seemingly lifted..

I actually think it is more that the Scarlet Witch is running subconsciously in Wanda, and while Wanda can influence it by certain stimuli and emotions; that the Scarlet Witch would try to possess Wanda. And in that possession, the desire of finding and getting her kids would be a plot point for Multiverse of Madness.
 
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