Halloween Horror Nights 29 General Discussion

[shiekra38]

But, from a business perspective, why? What’s the ROI on paying someone $30k a year to only market and advertise for an event that only runs 2 months and already pulls in 100k guests a year? It won’t increase market share. And the digital engagement audience is going to be limited to your “assured” capital.

Now, I would argue A&D could benefit from a “Latern Keeper” whose job is to maintain HHN canon and oversee marketing and advertising strategies that leverage that. But, even that would be the position struck if the layoffs hit.

I feel A&D are their own "lantern keepers" in a way...Marketing has seem to hit a stride with how to handle HHN, as much as the fans don't like it...People know about Horror Nights

And HHN only pulls in 100K people? I though it would be more than that

 

[Parkscope Joe]

But, from a business perspective, why? What’s the ROI on paying someone $30k a year to only market and advertise for an event that only runs 2 months and already pulls in 100k guests a year? It won’t increase market share. And the digital engagement audience is going to be limited to your “assured” capital.

Now, I would argue A&D could benefit from a “Latern Keeper” whose job is to maintain HHN canon and oversee marketing and advertising strategies that leverage that. But, even that would be the position struck if the layoffs hit.

Everyone wants year round HHN things but doesn't understand that it being limited is what makes it special.

 

[JawsVictim]

But, from a business perspective, why? What’s the ROI on paying someone $30k a year to only market and advertise for an event that only runs 2 months and already pulls in 100k guests a year? It won’t increase market share. And the digital engagement audience is going to be limited to your “assured” capital.

Now, I would argue A&D could benefit from a “Latern Keeper” whose job is to maintain HHN canon and oversee marketing and advertising strategies that leverage that. But, even that would be the position struck if the layoffs hit.

You’re probably right, but I’d argue you only need to attract around 200 new attendees to offset the salary. I myself was attracted to the event long before attending because of marketing efforts, the official websites, and unofficial fan pages.

Why not control the narrative? Why not try to excite the GP with HHN history? Why not bring more attention to the backstories of houses? “Because ROI and business, etc.” is a lame and short sighted excuse.

Onto a different topic...I finally watched The Lost Boys for the first time and really wanna see this come to the event as a house or SZ.

Edit:

Everyone wants year round HHN things but doesn't understand that it being limited is what makes it special.

The event is, and always will be limited. There is a vast amount of history and BTS details that can be applied year round; hence why we’re all here.

 

[Legacy]

You’re probably right, but I’d argue you only need to attract around 200 new attendees to offset the salary. I myself was attracted to the event long before attending because of marketing efforts, the official websites, and unofficial fan pages.

Why not control the narrative? Why not try to excite the GP with HHN history? Why not bring more attention to the backstories of houses? “Because ROI and business, etc.” is a lame and short sighted excuse.

Onto a different topic...I finally watched The Lost Boys for the first time and really wanna see this come to the event as a house or SZ.

Edit:

The event is, and always will be limited. There is a vast amount of history and BTS details that can be applied year round; hence why we’re all here.

From the perspective of a business the size of Universal (and Comcast), 200 people isn’t worth $30,000 a year salary plus expenses. That’s a marketing cost of at least $150 a head (Businesses have a desired cost-per ROI with their marketing), which is ridiculously inefficient. Universal probably wants a per-head cost around $20 (or less). If that person can bring in 1,200 people every year, then Universal may consider it.

Nevermind that this $30k doesn’t include expenses like media campaigns and server maintenance, which are included in the per-head expenditures.

Here’s the problem with your argument that “‘Because ROI and business’ is a lame and short sighted excuse,” though.

HHN is a business.

It’s not a labor of love. It’s not a local haunt built in a garage. ROI and business is its heartbeat.

Now, some history.

In the aughts, when Entertainment (ie - Roddy) had free reign of the event, it had a labor of love feel. The backstories, websites, games, everything, were extras made by the core team because they wanted to do those things. Universal, the company, didn’t care because HHN was the only thing making money. Then Roddy got fired and Potter became the cash cow. In 2010, because the year’s “story” was a bit thrown together and Comcast had their eyes on costs, the website did away with complicated stories. Stories existed, but were not a focus. The same thing happened in 2011 (and the designer who built all those websites and games on the side moved to Disney).

What Universal discovered is that the GP didn’t miss the fancier websites and stories. All they wanted to know was how many houses/zones there were and how to buy tickets.

The fans cared, and were vocal. But then they bought tickets anyway. Universal realized the expenses weren’t necessary as an investment. As the core designers from the aughts moved up or moved on, they got further removed from where those things were a priority.

So, when you ask why Universal doesn’t do something they used to do, maybe the better question is why don’t they do it anymore.

EDIT -

I feel A&D are their own "lantern keepers" in a way...Marketing has seem to hit a stride with how to handle HHN, as much as the fans don't like it...People know about Horror Nights

And HHN only pulls in 100K people? I though it would be more than that

A lot of the “canon” guys aren’t actually in A&D anymore.

And don’t know where I pulled the number from. It’s grossly wrong. If I had to guess, I’d put it easily over 800k a year.

 

[OhHaiInternet95]

From the perspective of a business the size of Universal (and Comcast), 200 people isn’t worth $30,000 a year salary plus expenses. That’s a marketing cost of at least $150 a head (Businesses have a desired cost-per ROI with their marketing), which is ridiculously inefficient. Universal probably wants a per-head cost around $20 (or less). If that person can bring in 1,200 people every year, then Universal may consider it.

Nevermind that this $30k doesn’t include expenses like media campaigns and server maintenance, which are included in the per-head expenditures.

Here’s the problem with your argument that “‘Because ROI and business’ is a lame and short sighted excuse,” though.

HHN is a business.

It’s not a labor of love. It’s not a local haunt built in a garage. ROI and business is its heartbeat.

Now, some history.

In the aughts, when Entertainment (ie - Roddy) had free reign of the event, it had a labor of love feel. The backstories, websites, games, everything, were extras made by the core team because they wanted to do those things. Universal, the company, didn’t care because HHN was the only thing making money. Then Roddy got fired and Potter became the cash cow. In 2010, because the year’s “story” was a bit thrown together and Comcast had their eyes on costs, the website did away with complicated stories. Stories existed, but were not a focus. The same thing happened in 2011 (and the designer who built all those websites and games on the side moved to Disney).

What Universal discovered is that the GP didn’t miss the fancier websites and stories. All they wanted to know was how many houses/zones there were and how to buy tickets.

The fans cared, and were vocal. But then they bought tickets anyway. Universal realized the expenses weren’t necessary as an investment. As the core designers from the aughts moved up or moved on, they got further removed from where those things were a priority.

So, when you ask why Universal doesn’t do something they used to do, maybe the better question is why don’t they do it anymore.

EDIT -


A lot of the “canon” guys aren’t actually in A&D anymore.

And don’t know where I pulled the number from. It’s grossly wrong. If I had to guess, I’d put it easily over 800k a year.

2011 had an interactive website, I think.

And I'd hope that the event itself is still a labor of love, at least when it comes to the actual houses and scarezones. You don't construct a big-@$$ riverboat for a facade if you don't care, I guess. Now Hollywood does SEEM like a bit less of a "labor of love" than Orlando does.

Seems like they took a step in the right direction last year by giving originals their own announcements, rather than just plop them all late in August.

 

[Legacy]

2011 had an interactive website, I think.

And I'd hope that the event itself is still a labor of love, at least when it comes to the actual houses and scarezones. You don't construct a big-@$$ riverboat for a facade if you don't care, I guess. Now Hollywood does SEEM like much less of a "labor of love" than Orlando does.

Seems like they took a step in the right direction last year by giving originals their own announcements, rather than just plop them all late in August.

A&D is in weird boat. They have a responsibility to achieve the standard previous years set. Yes, the designers love what they do. A number of the designers are in those positions because of HHN. But the only reason they get to do it is because - business. It’s meant to be a premier event that’s worth the thousands people pay to attend. (Of course, no of that has anything to do with the event’s marketing).

Hollywood is in a different boat because it’s structured differently and its intended scale is naturally much lower. It’s not a vacation driver.

 

[Nick]

And don’t know where I pulled the number from. It’s grossly wrong. If I had to guess, I’d put it easily over 800k a year.

I was gonna say... there was about 5-6 sellouts this past year, which is 250k-300k just right there.

Or are you talking in terms of unique purchases (meaning FFP would only count once)?

 

[Legacy]

I was gonna say... there was about 5-6 sellouts this past year, which is 250k-300k just right there.

Or are you talking in terms of unique purchases (meaning FFP would only count once)?

I'm guessing. 30,000 guests a night for 35 nights (which feels like it could give a good ballpark), is over a million heads. The 800k is just hedging bets.

 

[Nick]

I'm guessing. 30,000 guests a night for 35 nights (which feels like it could give a good ballpark), is over a million heads. The 800k is just hedging bets.

30K a night is probably a good ballpark. I think it's starting to go past that if you averaged it out, but a good number to go off of. Even on slow nights this past year - the Tuesday that was added late in the run for example - there was still 18-20K that were in attendance that night. And that was a beautiful throwback night to when HHN wasn't nearly as popular as it is today.

And as we all know, there was only a few 'slow' nights this past year.

 

[Legacy]

30K a night is probably a good ballpark. I think it's starting to go past that if you averaged it out, but a good number to go off of. Even on slow nights this past year - the Tuesday that was added late in the run for example - there was still 18-20K that were in attendance that night. And that was a beautiful throwback night to when HHN wasn't nearly as popular as it is today.

And as we all know, there was only a few 'slow' nights this past year.

30k felt safe. Slow nights are probably no less than 15k. Capacity is about 42k. Actual average attendance is probably closer to 32k. At 40 nights, that's nearly 1.3 million.

Now, granted, that's the "Ops" number. The total tickets will be lower because of passes. If 25% purchase multi-night passes, that's still 800k tickets sold (and 25% *feels* high.

 

[JawsVictim]

So, when you ask why Universal doesn’t do something they used to do, maybe the better question is why don’t they do it anymore.

Nope, that wasn’t my question. My question is why don’t they do something new with an inexpensive social media platform, ie Instagram, to give fans a year round look at BTS content, backstories, and HHN history - or as you said a lantern keeper.

If your answer’s the same, got it. The discussion then moves beyond HHN and into economics versus creativity, which you’ve already touched on from Universal’s prospective.

 

[Nick]

30k felt safe. Slow nights are probably no less than 15k. Capacity is about 42k. Actual average attendance is probably closer to 32k. At 40 nights, that's nearly 1.3 million.

Now, granted, that's the "Ops" number. The total tickets will be lower because of passes. If 25% purchase multi-night passes, that's still 800k tickets sold (and 25% *feels* high.

I believe they were squeezing in 50k on capacity nights this year. Those were park projections at least.

 

[Legacy]

Nope, that wasn’t my question. My question is why don’t they do something new with an inexpensive social media platform, ie Instagram, to give fans a year round look at BTS content, backstories, and HHN history - or as you said a lantern keeper.

If your answer’s the same, got it. The discussion then moves beyond HHN and into economics versus creativity, which you’ve already touched on from Universal’s prospective.

The discussion is always economics versus creativity. That's the challenge.

And there's a lot of misperceptions about the "costs" of advertising/engaging through social media. Once it starts scaling to an audience Universal's size, it stops becoming "inexpensive".

An Instagram ad campaign (which is necessary to expand your audience - the point) costs between $0.20 and $2 a click on average. That span is big because businesses actually bid for advertising spots (they're not guaranteed to pop up) and variables determine clicks. Universal will want at least 1,000 clicks per ad (minimum). On the cheap end, that's $200 dollars an ad.

That's one ad. Think about how many times Universal will advertise during the week. If they only advertise twice a day, $200 an ad, that's $2,800 a week and $145k a year on Instagram ads.

(Full disclosure, social media ads are based on budgets. You say "Here's this much money for X amount of views," and it starts ticking. These numbers are based on clicks. Impressions, generally, are cheaper - $5 for 1000 views. But the rule is it takes 7 impressions to stick. If Universal wants to "stick" 10,000 people, that's $350 a campaign over 2 weeks. They'll typically run multiple campaign concurrently targeting different demos. Five similar campaigns every two weeks is $47k a year.)

That's just purchasing ads on a single platform. Add Twitter and Snapchat and you've tripled the cost. Plus a two person (minimum) to curate contents and manage it all, Universal is dropping half a million on a simple social media team.

And, again, if they're just posting BTS/archival stuff for die-hard fans, what's the incentive?

For clarity, my "Lantern Keeper" wouldn't engage fans. They would serve as a resource to A&D and Marketing, meant to maintain continuity and help develop multi-faceted advertising/engagement strategies. From a business perspective, their focus is proactively pursuing new customers with creative solutions. The past is the past.

 

[shiekra38]

From the perspective of a business the size of Universal (and Comcast), 200 people isn’t worth $30,000 a year salary plus expenses. That’s a marketing cost of at least $150 a head (Businesses have a desired cost-per ROI with their marketing), which is ridiculously inefficient. Universal probably wants a per-head cost around $20 (or less). If that person can bring in 1,200 people every year, then Universal may consider it.

Nevermind that this $30k doesn’t include expenses like media campaigns and server maintenance, which are included in the per-head expenditures.

Here’s the problem with your argument that “‘Because ROI and business’ is a lame and short sighted excuse,” though.

HHN is a business.

It’s not a labor of love. It’s not a local haunt built in a garage. ROI and business is its heartbeat.

Now, some history.

In the aughts, when Entertainment (ie - Roddy) had free reign of the event, it had a labor of love feel. The backstories, websites, games, everything, were extras made by the core team because they wanted to do those things. Universal, the company, didn’t care because HHN was the only thing making money. Then Roddy got fired and Potter became the cash cow. In 2010, because the year’s “story” was a bit thrown together and Comcast had their eyes on costs, the website did away with complicated stories. Stories existed, but were not a focus. The same thing happened in 2011 (and the designer who built all those websites and games on the side moved to Disney).

What Universal discovered is that the GP didn’t miss the fancier websites and stories. All they wanted to know was how many houses/zones there were and how to buy tickets.

The fans cared, and were vocal. But then they bought tickets anyway. Universal realized the expenses weren’t necessary as an investment. As the core designers from the aughts moved up or moved on, they got further removed from where those things were a priority.

So, when you ask why Universal doesn’t do something they used to do, maybe the better question is why don’t they do it anymore.

EDIT -


A lot of the “canon” guys aren’t actually in A&D anymore.

And don’t know where I pulled the number from. It’s grossly wrong. If I had to guess, I’d put it easily over 800k a year.

Wait, Roddy got fired?

 

[JawsVictim]

Wait, Roddy got fired?

From my understanding, he was asked to resign due to misconduct allegations.

 

[shiekra38]

From my understanding, he was asked to resign due to misconduct allegations.

Gotcha, I'd rather not delve/derail the thread...I always understood that he left for creative reasons...Thanks

 

[hhnlover]

us: can we get an annouc-
universal:

 

[Legacy]

us: can we get an annouc-
universal:

*sigh*

 

[Darko]

It's only mid-March. Last year had our first annoucement on April 3rd. If I remember correctly.

 

[JawsVictim]

Honestly hope nothing gets announced until July/August like the good old days just to teach everyone a lesson in patience.