Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Brian G.]

So after seeing it again, and reading a few articles about it. Here's the gist:

Spoiler

They establish the rules of time travel in the movie. As time travel doesn't actually exist (shocker!) - the movie can play by whatever rules they care to follow, as long as they follow it. In this case, they don't follow the usual tropes that Back to the Future does, aka The Grandfather Paradox.

In the film, Hulk clears it up by saying there is no future traveling. We can only go back, not forward; and if you go into the past, it is now your future, and the present is now your past.

If anything is altered, it creates a branched timeline, or an alternate reality - which is why they have to replace the Stones back to where they stole them. Basically, the MCU is the "Prime Timeline", or in the comics, known as Earth-616. When Loki gets the Tesseract in 2012, it creates a branch but it will not affect the Prime Line.

 

[Freak]

So after seeing it again, and reading a few articles about it. Here's the gist:

Spoiler

They establish the rules of time travel in the movie. As time travel doesn't actually exist (shocker!) - the movie can play by whatever rules they care to follow, as long as they follow it. In this case, they don't follow the usual tropes that Back to the Future does, aka The Grandfather Paradox.

In the film, Hulk clears it up by saying there is no future traveling. We can only go back, not forward; and if you go into the past, it is now your future, and the present is now your past.

If anything is altered, it creates a branched timeline, or an alternate reality - which is why they have to replace the Stones back to where they stole them. Basically, the MCU is the "Prime Timeline", or in the comics, known as Earth-616. When Loki gets the Tesseract in 2012, it creates a branch but it will not affect the Prime Line.

Spoiler: Spoils

Glad you clarified that as I was confused how Nebula was able to kill her past self without dying in the process.

 

[Magic-Man]

Spoiler

 

[Nick]

Spoiler

Time travel is generally accepted that if you go and change one persons timeline, it messes with everyone else’s though, which I feel they sort of skirted around. I know they were creating their own rules - and they sold them well - but it was all out of convenience.

Of course this the same movie where a spaceship stopped dead in the middle of space because it ran out of gas lol

 

[Scott W.]

Spoiler

Time travel is generally accepted that if you go and change one persons timeline, it messes with everyone else’s though, which I feel they sort of skirted around. I know they were creating their own rules - and they sold them well - but it was all out of convenience.

Of course this the same movie where a spaceship stopped dead in the middle of space because it ran out of gas lol

Spoiler

It also makes the time heist name much more appropriate.

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

Time travel is generally accepted that if you go and change one persons timeline, it messes with everyone else’s though, which I feel they sort of skirted around. I know they were creating their own rules - and they sold them well - but it was all out of convenience.

Of course this the same movie where a spaceship stopped dead in the middle of space because it ran out of gas lol

Spoiler

There are several different theories that obviously can't be proven until it actually exists. We're used to so many movies using that theory that we accept that it's the "generally accepted", but it isn't the only way. There is no way to prove which is the "right" way time travel works, so Avengers followed another theory that worked best for their story.

 

[zg44]

So after seeing it again, and reading a few articles about it. Here's the gist:

Spoiler

They establish the rules of time travel in the movie. As time travel doesn't actually exist (shocker!) - the movie can play by whatever rules they care to follow, as long as they follow it. In this case, they don't follow the usual tropes that Back to the Future does, aka The Grandfather Paradox.

In the film, Hulk clears it up by saying there is no future traveling. We can only go back, not forward; and if you go into the past, it is now your future, and the present is now your past.

If anything is altered, it creates a branched timeline, or an alternate reality - which is why they have to replace the Stones back to where they stole them. Basically, the MCU is the "Prime Timeline", or in the comics, known as Earth-616. When Loki gets the Tesseract in 2012, it creates a branch but it will not affect the Prime Line.

Spoiler: Loki Disney+ Show

The key though is that the Disney+ show will possibly cover Loki time traveling himself and affecting various historical events, so after getting the Tesseract, Loki figures out a way to time travel himself if that really is the jump off to the TV series:

THR reported he "pops up throughout human history as unlikely influencer on historical events."

That's why he could eventually time travel himself forward to 2023+ and meet Thor or join the next Avengers movie (theoretically will be around 2023-2024).

Of course that means the Tesseract could somehow find its way back to the current MCU timeline. We have to wait and see what happens; it could just be they decide not to leave it open ended and leave Loki in the past at the end of the TV show.

 

[fryoj]

My understanding of the situation is:

Spoiler: Loki

2012 Loki branches a new timeline out when he takes the Tesseract. The Disney+ show will follow that Loki on his exploits.

The thing which makes it all confusing is that Steve stayed in the past and was able to get to the present timeline as an aged old man. So yes, it is theoretically possible for 2012 Loki to bypass the Thanos killing of 2018 Loki and get to the present MCU timeline by jumping.

My guess is Disney will decide what to do with Loki based on GotG 3/Thor 4/Chris Hemsworth and decide whether they want Loki to re-enter the current timeline based on their contracts. If they decide not to, they can just re-connect Loki 2012 to Thor Ragnarok's timeline by having Loki end up returning to the normal 2018 timeline at the end of his show before he gets killed by Thanos. That would clean up the loose ends.

Spoiler

Except the whole Thanos is dead in that Timeline too thing. Either time is linear and IW now didn't happen, or it branches and Steve shouldn't be there. Either way, we'll never get an official answer. They'll just twist it however they need to for future stories to work.

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

Except the whole Thanos is dead in that Timeline too thing. Either time is linear and IW now didn't happen, or it branches and Steve shouldn't be there. Either way, we'll never get an official answer. They'll just twist it however they need to for future stories to work.

No.

Spoiler

You guys are still approaching it as if the past changes, the future changes. The Prime Time had 2 Thanos, the one with the Snap and the one who came from 2014. The one who left 2014 thus created a branched timeline, but the Prime Timeline remains unaffected.

 

[zg44]

Spoiler

Except the whole Thanos is dead in that Timeline too thing. Either time is linear and IW now didn't happen, or it branches and Steve shouldn't be there. Either way, we'll never get an official answer. They'll just twist it however they need to for future stories to work.

Spoiler

Yeah, I mean if Loki is really going to be jumping around in time to do whatever he wants during his TV show, I think it means they'll just twist things as they need.

Eventually they'll decide whether they want 2012 Loki to time travel to the present MCU timeline to meet Thor. If Hemsworth has retired his role by then, I think they'll just leave Loki and the Tesseract in the past...

 

[fryoj]

No.

Spoiler

You guys are still approaching it as if the past changes, the future changes. The Prime Time had 2 Thanos, the one with the Snap and the one who came from 2014. The one who left 2014 thus created a branched timeline, but the Prime Timeline remains unaffected.

Spoiler

So then how did Steve staying in the past not create a branched timeline? How is old Steve sitting on the bench? He went back and changed the past and it affected his future/our present.

 

[belloq87]

Spoiler

So then how did Steve staying in the past not create a branched timeline? How is old Steve sitting on the bench? He went back and changed the past and it affected his future/our present.

Spoiler

Per the writers and directors, Steve going back to be with Peggy WAS in a branched/alternate timeline, and the filmmakers' intention was to imply that Old Steve - somehow - got back to the "prime" timeline after having spent decades in an alternate one.

They deliberately don't want to explain how Steve did this, which leads me to one of two possibilities:

1. They know it breaks their own rules and did it anyway because it creates a great final moment for the character.
2. They (meaning the MCU more broadly) will eventually address it and they don't want to give away anything yet.

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

So then how did Steve staying in the past not create a branched timeline? How is old Steve sitting on the bench? He went back and changed the past and it affected his future/our present.

Spoiler

Nothing changed in the Prime Line. He created an alternate reality when he went back, where eventually it branched back into ours. Capt America still gets defrosted, leads the Avengers, survives the snap, etc. When that very same Steve goes back and marries Peggy, it creates a new reality but still leaves the MCU/Prime Line as is until he circles back into it. The directors have stated that there is a reason he was able to branch back, maybe because of his knowledge - but it's something that may be addressed in later movies.

This should help

Spoiler

Remember, no matter the branched reality or altered past - the white/MCU/Prime stays constant.

 

[fryoj]

Spoiler

Per the writers and directors, Steve going back to be with Peggy WAS in a branched/alternate timeline, and the filmmakers' intention was to imply that Old Steve - somehow - got back to the "prime" timeline after having spent decades in an alternate one.

They deliberately don't want to explain how Steve did this, which leads me to one of two possibilities:

1. They know it breaks their own rules and did it anyway because it creates a great final moment for the character.
2. They (meaning the MCU more broadly) will eventually address it and they don't want to give away anything yet.

Spoiler

Nothing changed in the Prime Line. He created an alternate reality when he went back, where eventually it branched back into ours. Capt America still gets defrosted, leads the Avengers, survives the snap, etc. When that very same Steve goes back and marries Peggy, it creates a new reality but still leaves the MCU/Prime Line as is until he circles back into it. The directors have stated that there is a reason he was able to branch back, maybe because of his knowledge - but it's something that may be addressed in later movies.

This should help

Spoiler

Remember, no matter the branched reality or altered past - the white/MCU/Prime stays constant.
View attachment 9488

Spoiler

I think @belloq87 number 1 answers it. They know it breaks the rules, but they needed a "steve didn't die, but is leaving the MCU" moment.

That photo says it all actually. The white "prime" timeline has two T's in it. lol

If the directors want to invent a way to explain it later, so be it. But what they actually show, doesn't add up.

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

I think @belloq87 number 1 answers it. They know it breaks the rules, but they needed a "steve didn't die, but is leaving the MCU" moment.

That photo says it all actually. The white "prime" timeline has two T's in it. lol

If the directors want to invent a way to explain it later, so be it. But what they actually show, doesn't add up.

Spoiler

But it does...

They established the rules in the movie. Everyone keeps going off how time travel works from other movies.

 

[fryoj]

Spoiler

But it does...

They established the rules in the movie. Everyone keeps going off how time travel works from other movies.

Spoiler

I'm referring to the movie and only the movie. In one instance they change something(Thanos leaving the past) and it creates a new timeline. In another instance they change something(Steve going back to Peggy) and it doesn't create a new timeline. They contradict themselves in how time works. All they had to do was have Old Steve pop out of the time travel machine and it works. By having him there the whole time it breaks it.

But we probably aren't going to agree on this. lol

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

I'm referring to the movie and only the movie. In one instance they change something(Thanos leaving the past) and it creates a new timeline. In another instance they change something(Steve going back to Peggy) and it doesn't create a new timeline. They contradict themselves in how time works. All they had to do was have Old Steve pop out of the time travel machine and it works. By having him there the whole time it breaks it.

But we probably aren't going to agree on this. lol

Can someone help out here?

Spoiler

We are talking about 2 different instances of time travel. 2014 Thanos travels to the future due to the 2014 Nebula tricking the team, however, he is still "Past" Thanos. Remember, per the rules, changing the past does not alter the future, just creating a new branched timeline. The only thing Past Thanos affects is the 2014 reality, and his departure creates that timeline branch. The Prime Line remains constant, and that's the time Past Thanos joins - leaving his 2014 timeline branch to be whatever it is. That's why when Past Nebula died, Present Nebula didn't.

In Steve's case, he is Present Steve going back in time. He remains Present Steve even in the past. The only branch it affects is Past Peggy. A safe bet is because Present Steve knows about the Prime Line and how the whole thing went down, he was able to branch back at that point where he gives the shield to Sam.

 

[belloq87]

Spoiler

But it does...

They established the rules in the movie. Everyone keeps going off how time travel works from other movies.

Spoiler

The rules, as established, don't explain how Steve was able to return to the prime timeline without the use of the Pym Particle Time Machine. And it can't be that he just "waited it out" and his alternate reality with Peggy just reconnected with the prime one... because the filmmakers are now on record explicitly saying that's NOT the case.

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

The rules, as established, don't explain how Steve was able to return to the prime timeline without the use of the Pym Particle Time Machine. And it can't be that he just "waited it out" and his alternate reality with Peggy just reconnected with the prime one... because the filmmakers are now on record explicitly saying that's NOT the case.

They didn't say that was the case, either.

The exact quote was "The brothers smile. “Interesting question, right?”

 

[fryoj]

Can someone help out here?

Spoiler

We are talking about 2 different instances of time travel. 2014 Thanos travels to the future due to the 2014 Nebula tricking the team, however, he is still "Past" Thanos. Remember, per the rules, changing the past does not alter the future, just creating a new branched timeline. The only thing Past Thanos affects is the 2014 reality, and his departure creates that timeline branch. The Prime Line remains constant, and that's the time Past Thanos joins - leaving his 2014 timeline branch to be whatever it is. That's why when Past Nebula died, Present Nebula didn't.

In Steve's case, he is Present Steve going back in time. He remains Present Steve even in the past. The only branch it affects is Past Peggy. A safe bet is because Present Steve knows about the Prime Line and how the whole thing went down, he was able to branch back at that point where he gives the shield to Sam.

Spoiler

The rules, as established, don't explain how Steve was able to return to the prime timeline without the use of the Pym Particle Time Machine. And it can't be that he just "waited it out" and his alternate reality with Peggy just reconnected with the prime one... because the filmmakers are now on record explicitly saying that's NOT the case.

Spoiler

@belloq87 says it how I see it. He can't just wish his way across timelines. He needs the machine. And everything they show in the movie, it has to be the same machine. Tony's math doesn't account for alternate realities and timelines. Steve is not Tony. Even knowing he was in another timeline doesn't mean he can change which one he's in.

As for the Russo's. If you had a plot hole in your multi-billion dollar movie, would you say it's a plot hole or just say, no, you just don't know how it works. wink wink nudge nudge?