Blackfish (The Tillikum Documentary)

[shiekra38]

...Meanwhile in Africa there is war and starving children


but fish are far more important

 

[Hockeyman55]

I went to Seaworld when I was 7 and then did not know any better. I will not go to Sea world ever again. I am completely against Orcas (and dolphins) being kept in tanks unsuitable for them, because the only things suitable for them is miles upon miles of space, which is what they need. Seaworld is seen as the best of the best when it comes to dolphin and whale shows, and they still find it hard to be able to keep these animals. What do you think happens in a not so world class place that keeps these animals. There is no need AT ALL for these animals to be kept in aquariums/theme parks. They are purely there for our entertainment and its wrong. To them the tanks they are kept in is like what a bath tub is to us, small and claustrophobic. As I said before they need miles upon miles of space.

Seaworld also breeds orcas with mothers and sons and fathers and daughters etc. which would never ever happen in the wild and leads to problems and premature deaths. I understand that Seaworld try to keep their animals in the best way they can, but no way will that ever be enough. We should appreciate these animals for what they are and that is the top predator of the sea, and not something to be used in a show for our entertainment. Its wrong and unnecessary.

As for taking animals out of the wild, they are the reason it became fashionable to take them out the wild. As said above Tillikum was taken from the sea and it doesnt matter that it wasnt seaworld, it would still be leaving the wild in the same way, which is usually to secure the pod of whales in an area and let the trainers pick out the ones they want, which are pulled out of the sea and the rest are slaughtered, which is exactly what happens to the dolphins in japan to this day. Trainers from around the world go and pick out dolphins for their theme park shows and know that the dolphins that are not picked will be slaughtered. i just don't understand why it still goes on when the trainers supposedly care about these dolphins, but arent bothered that they are the reason thousands of dolphins a year are killed.

Today India has stated that there will be no whales and dolphins to be kept in captivity in the country because it is inhumane and the animals are classed as non-human persons. If a third world country can do this, which is 100% the best thing for the animals, then why cant we follow suit?

I get that the show is amazing and the animals look "happy" but believe me there are not. they should be swimming in the wild with 50 other orcas in their family pod. I totally commend Blackfish and I really hope it gets the attention it deserves, because as long as seaworld has orcas and dolphin, i will not be going.

Just thought I would share my thoughts....

Well then with this, shouldn't then every zoo in the world that has captive animals be just as guilty as what you are saying?

 

[Eckert]

...Meanwhile in Africa there is war and starving children


but fish are far more important

Don't be that guy.

 

[andrew]

...Meanwhile in Africa there is war and starving children


but fish are far more important

I totally agree with where you are coming from and give my money to charities that support human causes. Also, there is war and starving children down the street from me, and I live in the United States.

That said, drawing light to SeaWorld issues and helping starving children are not mutually exclusive endeavors.

 

[Capacity]

Don't be that guy.

Yeah... Please don't

There are an infinite amount of issues going on around the world but this is a forum for theme parks and this issue pertains to the industry.

 

[Cruiseshipfan]

I went to Seaworld when I was 7 and then did not know any better. I will not go to Sea world ever again. I am completely against Orcas (and dolphins) being kept in tanks unsuitable for them, because the only things suitable for them is miles upon miles of space, which is what they need. Seaworld is seen as the best of the best when it comes to dolphin and whale shows, and they still find it hard to be able to keep these animals. What do you think happens in a not so world class place that keeps these animals. There is no need AT ALL for these animals to be kept in aquariums/theme parks. They are purely there for our entertainment and its wrong. To them the tanks they are kept in is like what a bath tub is to us, small and claustrophobic. As I said before they need miles upon miles of space.

So do you just want Seaworld to shut up shop and release every animal they have into the wild, where they will be killed, either due to being unfamiliar with the wild, due to injury or lack of skills. Also add they would also stop their rescue program, leading to deaths of many animals.

Seaworld also breeds orcas with mothers and sons and fathers and daughters etc. which would never ever happen in the wild and leads to problems and premature deaths. I understand that Seaworld try to keep their animals in the best way they can, but no way will that ever be enough. We should appreciate these animals for what they are and that is the top predator of the sea, and not something to be used in a show for our entertainment. Its wrong and unnecessary.

This is actually avoided by sending animals to other parks. This happens in all major zoos they all work together. So they breed animals that are not related. Thats why you don't see babies staying in the parks for too long, as they get sent to another zoo for their breeding program.

As for taking animals out of the wild, they are the reason it became fashionable to take them out the wild. As said above Tillikum was taken from the sea and it doesnt matter that it wasnt seaworld, it would still be leaving the wild in the same way, which is usually to secure the pod of whales in an area and let the trainers pick out the ones they want, which are pulled out of the sea and the rest are slaughtered, which is exactly what happens to the dolphins in japan to this day. Trainers from around the world go and pick out dolphins for their theme park shows and know that the dolphins that are not picked will be slaughtered. i just don't understand why it still goes on when the trainers supposedly care about these dolphins, but arent bothered that they are the reason thousands of dolphins a year are killed.

Bringing Japan into this is a useless argument. Japan are not big on saving the sea life. Every year they have a huge whaling season. They do this off the coast of Australia, New Zealand and down to Antarctica. They kill thousands of whales each year and claim it on scientific research. So bringing Japan into the mix is useless as they have a whole culture of it.

Today India has stated that there will be no whales and dolphins to be kept in captivity in the country because it is inhumane and the animals are classed as non-human persons. If a third world country can do this, which is 100% the best thing for the animals, then why cant we follow suit?

There is a huge difference. In India there is not great care for their animals, they just don't have the money to support the parks. Just look at the amount of money Seaworld needs to support its operation. Now imagine trying to do that in an area filled with poverty. Sure they have rich areas but they don't have enough people with enough money to support parks and give them enough care.

I get that the show is amazing and the animals look "happy" but believe me there are not. they should be swimming in the wild with 50 other orcas in their family pod. I totally commend Blackfish and I really hope it gets the attention it deserves, because as long as seaworld has orcas and dolphin, i will not be going.

How would you know if they are happy, are you a whale/dolphin whisperer? Most of them don't know anything else. Also with their shows the animals are not made to perform, they chose to perform and are not forced in anyway. They do it because they like doing it. If they got released into the wild they wouldn't be in pods, they would be alone, as they never had a pod and they wouldn't know how to get along with the other whales. And if they really were not happy their would be a lot more human and animal deaths. One thing I find really stupid is the so called environmentalists who call for everyone to boycot the parks, so they go bankrupt and released the animals. If they were really environmentalists they would be getting more people to go there are if these animals are released there is a 100% chance they will die.

 

[Jenstar]

So why is it then that people are targeting Seaworld? Seaworld isn't the one killing/taking animals, they are the ones rescuing and healing them, and releasing what they can. The animals they have can NOT be released into the wild, they will DIE. I'm not saying that taking animals out of the wild is right, but I'm also not going to target a company that's not responsible for it, especially when they're the ones trying to help, and the only one that's revenue goes to a nationally known cause instead of just into corporate pockets like Disney.

They are targeting seaworld because it is classed as the biggest and best in the world. its to prove a point that even this one which is world famous and with all its money still cannot look after these animals. We are talking about the orcas, seaworld don't rescue any orcas, they do rescue other animals yes. they also dont release orcas because it wouldnt work. After training these animals to beg for food and do tricks i highly doubt it would get far in the wild. Seaworld do release other animals, I am only condemming them from keeping whales and dolphins, because its not right. I know exactly what would happen if they tried to release an orca into the wild. It wouldnt survive. That was not the point I was trying to make, the point is they should stop using these aniamls for our own selfish wants. Is it not wrong that we are using these creatures for our entertainment? These huge powerful creatures are being taught to wave to the audience and splash around a pool.

 

[Jenstar]

Well then with this, shouldn't then every zoo in the world that has captive animals be just as guilty as what you are saying?

No because world class zoos are able to keep a lion or a panda or rhino etc etc in their natural habitat. Obviously there are zoos in the world who should be shut down immediately, but some zoos need credit for what they do, which is create breeding programmes for endangered animals (orcas are not classed as endangered) and provide excellent care for their animals. Seaworld do not keep orcas in there natural habitat, and they also keep certain orcas alone in pools (which is extremely unnatural). However, because of how unnatural their environment is, captive bred orcas have created a new behaviour, which is to bully other whales, which in the wild never happens and can cause. In a world class zoo, unnatural behaviour like this does not happen and especially as extreme as this.

I just dont think whales and dolphins should be in captivity and especially not in shows.

 

[Jenstar]

So do you just want Seaworld to shut up shop and release every animal they have into the wild, where they will be killed, either due to being unfamiliar with the wild, due to injury or lack of skills. Also add they would also stop their rescue program, leading to deaths of many animals.

Obviously they would not do this come on. I am just saying they should stop the shows. its unnecessary and unfair. The amount of care they give to their animals is undeniable, i am not slating them for that! I am saying is no matter how hard they try, unless they have a penned off area in the sea (which was 40 miles big) they will never be able to give orcas they care they need. They dont have a rescue programme for orcas, they dont need resuced in the wild they are apex predators and a named wolves of the sea, because of their clever way of working as a team to catch prey. They have rescue programmes for other animals yes to which is great. Seaworld only gets hate because of the whales and dolphins. Seaworld should stop the shows and stop the breeding and try and give the orcas thats left as good a life as they can, maybe younger ones could eventually go back in the wild if they show the correct signs and not trained to act like a clown etc etc.

This is actually avoided by sending animals to other parks. This happens in all major zoos they all work together. So they breed animals that are not related. Thats why you don't see babies staying in the parks for too long, as they get sent to another zoo for their breeding program.

breeding program happen in zoos yes, where it is easy to transport certain animals to zoos of course. It is completely true that seaworld inbreeds their orcas. A mother with a son etc etc. It is also true that they still breed with Tillikum. They may send some away, but there is only so many different breeding groups they can create and in the wild this would never happen, inbreeding never happens.

Bringing Japan into this is a useless argument. Japan are not big on saving the sea life. Every year they have a huge whaling season. They do this off the coast of Australia, New Zealand and down to Antarctica. They kill thousands of whales each year and claim it on scientific research. So bringing Japan into the mix is useless as they have a whole culture of it.

I was not saying that i was saying that the part of reason the kill thousands of dolphins a year is to provide for marine parks. This was also stated by another member of the forum to which i was just adding my bit regarding what he said.

There is a huge difference. In India there is not great care for their animals, they just don't have the money to support the parks. Just look at the amount of money Seaworld needs to support its operation. Now imagine trying to do that in an area filled with poverty. Sure they have rich areas but they don't have enough people with enough money to support parks and give them enough care.

At least they show that they care more about the animals by stating it rather than trying to keep them and failing. They just declared to the world that these animals should not be kept in captivity. I think that shows greatness out of something westerners think is such an amazing thing.

How would you know if they are happy, are you a whale/dolphin whisperer? Most of them don't know anything else. Also with their shows the animals are not made to perform, they chose to perform and are not forced in anyway. They do it because they like doing it. If they got released into the wild they wouldn't be in pods, they would be alone, as they never had a pod and they wouldn't know how to get along with the other whales. And if they really were not happy their would be a lot more human and animal deaths. One thing I find really stupid is the so called environmentalists who call for everyone to boycot the parks, so they go bankrupt and released the animals. If they were really environmentalists they would be getting more people to go there are if these animals are released there is a 100% chance they will die.

Why would they be happy?! Being kept in a small tank (which to them is what we feel like in a bath tub), having to beg for food, instead of using their natural instincts and finding and killing food themselves. Being kept in a tank alone, which is so unnatural to them instead of being a a pod of 40 or more orcas. Then on the other hand being kept in a tank where the other orcas are bullying you and causing scars and physical damage. Seaworld cant win, marine parks have created behaviour in orcas that does not happen in the wild. Why would orcas like doing tricks?! half the things they teach orcas to do they dont do in the wild!!! I realise that they cannot release the orcas in the wild, if they did it would be chaos. They just need to stop with the shows (which obviously they wont because money means more to them) and then try and put the remaining orcas in an environment which is more like their real habitat.

I'm not one of those people, i just wish people would see sense. It is not fair for those orcas to be doing it. What if people just stopped going to the shows?

We have different opinions thats fine. I just think it is a practice that needs to stop. oh and cruiseshipfan i love your sig!!

 

[Hockeyman55]

No because world class zoos are able to keep a lion or a panda or rhino etc etc in their natural habitat. Obviously there are zoos in the world who should be shut down immediately, but some zoos need credit for what they do, which is create breeding programmes for endangered animals (orcas are not classed as endangered) and provide excellent care for their animals. Seaworld do not keep orcas in there natural habitat, and they also keep certain orcas alone in pools (which is extremely unnatural). However, because of how unnatural their environment is, captive bred orcas have created a new behaviour, which is to bully other whales, which in the wild never happens and can cause. In a world class zoo, unnatural behaviour like this does not happen and especially as extreme as this.

I just dont think whales and dolphins should be in captivity and especially not in shows.

Very valid points. I just find it hard to differentiate the difference between a lion that is caged in a grass field with some rocks and trees versus an orca in a huge pool filled with salt water (which one would hope would be the correct salinity, ph level, nitrates, nitrites and so on and so forth on what the orcas require). Both recreation of their natural habitat but really nowhere close to being the same as the real thing. Really my point is, when it comes down to it should any animals be caged/put on display?

- - - Updated - - -

Being kept in a small tank (which to them is what we feel like in a bath tub),

If you compared it to size of the ocra to the size of its pool, wouldn't a better comparison be us to an average sized swimming pool? I dont know about you, but im not really able to do back flips and flap my arms around in any average sized bath tub :

 

[Vyrus]

Definitely a loaded topic here...one great and bad thing about humans is the fact we feel and care for other humans and living creatures.

But one personal issue I've always had is people speaking out on "behalf" of the animal, like the animal told them something, or they know what they are feeling.

Any of you speaking out against what Seaworld does, do any of you have any pets at home? Dogs, Cats, Birds, Fish?....if you do, then you practice the EXACT SAME philosophy of Seaworld, which is to love, care, and entertain an animal, make it feel loved, and let it know it is safe with you.

How do you know the animals at Seaworld don't feel safe and feel loved? I'm sure the Dolphins in the feeding pool LOOOOOOOVE being fed every 15 minutes and never going hungry. I'm sure the Orcas, mother, fathers, and children LOVE being able to be with their family at all times and not be worried about being split from their pod.

Don't think with a narrow frame of mind, and understand Seaworld cares....those Japanese sailors with the Dolphins, those are the people you go after, but not Seaworld.

And the main reason why Tillikum was kept is because he was literally one of the best breeder orcas in the country...you think he's complaining about that?!

 

[Jenstar]

Definitely a loaded topic here...one great and bad thing about humans is the fact we feel and care for other humans and living creatures.

But one personal issue I've always had is people speaking out on "behalf" of the animal, like the animal told them something, or they know what they are feeling.

Any of you speaking out against what Seaworld does, do any of you have any pets at home? Dogs, Cats, Birds, Fish?....if you do, then you practice the EXACT SAME philosophy of Seaworld, which is to love, care, and entertain an animal, make it feel loved, and let it know it is safe with you.

How do you know the animals at Seaworld don't feel safe and feel loved? I'm sure the Dolphins in the feeding pool LOOOOOOOVE being fed every 15 minutes and never going hungry. I'm sure the Orcas, mother, fathers, and children LOVE being able to be with their family at all times and not be worried about being split from their pod.

Don't think with a narrow frame of mind, and understand Seaworld cares....those Japanese sailors with the Dolphins, those are the people you go after, but not Seaworld.

And the main reason why Tillikum was kept is because he was literally one of the best breeder orcas in the country...you think he's complaining about that?!

Cats and dogs are domesticated creatures, which is the main point orcas are not domesticated and never should be. these animals should be in the wild for us to ponder at and look at in amazement, not for us to be entertained by them doing tricks in a swimming pool.

It is not natural for a dolphin to eat that way. I'm sure they are not complaining, but again they are learning unnatural behaviours. The problem is at Seaworld the orcas do not have a pod in the way they would in the wild. I said before that sometimes they are kept in pools by themselves and also if certain orcas are kept together they begin bullying the weakest orca. so there is no part of family life at seaworld for the orcas, except when a mother is with her calf.

The question is that why are they still using him to breed with?! He killed a trainer. his instincts will be passed down to all his calves and please remember that Tillikum was taken from the wild. He is still wild at heart and no amount of training will change that.

Haha i need to stay off this thread... Just something I dont agree with guys

 

[maxairmike]

Hypothetical question, but...what if Tillikum is taken out of the equation? He's the "trouble maker" in this whole saga. Do we have this kind of discussion at this high of a level? The shows are not an inherently bad thing, and I think if you consider all of the research positives, they are almost entirely good things for all parties involved, including the whales. Yes, the shows do provide plenty of research opportunities and results, because it is direct interaction, physical activity, and a continuous learning experience. Very few shows are exactly the same, and when the whale doesn't want to do something or misunderstands a command, it isn't done, they move onto the next section of the show at the next cue. These animals need a lot of "exercise," and the shows provide that in the proper amounts. They'd still need at least as much space as the show and off-show tanks require without the shows (probably more, as their physical exertion beyond typical swimming speeds is met by the jumps and such activities).

 

[Vyrus]

Cats and dogs are domesticated creatures, which is the main point orcas are not domesticated and never should be. these animals should be in the wild for us to ponder at and look at in amazement, not for us to be entertained by them doing tricks in a swimming pool.

It is not natural for a dolphin to eat that way. I'm sure they are not complaining, but again they are learning unnatural behaviours. The problem is at Seaworld the orcas do not have a pod in the way they would in the wild. I said before that sometimes they are kept in pools by themselves and also if certain orcas are kept together they begin bullying the weakest orca. so there is no part of family life at seaworld for the orcas, except when a mother is with her calf.

The question is that why are they still using him to breed with?! He killed a trainer. his instincts will be passed down to all his calves and please remember that Tillikum was taken from the wild. He is still wild at heart and no amount of training will change that.

Haha i need to stay off this thread... Just something I dont agree with guys

Dogs are domesticated creatures NOW, but they are wild animals at heart as well, have many wild instincts too. My point being is if you care for the animal, feed, it, love it, nurse it to heath and everything, that is not a bad thing right? The trainers at SW have that kind of relationship, and even more so with the ones bred in captivity.

And again, all of the orcas and dolphins that are bred in captivity guess what...are domesticated! Releasing them into the wild they will DIE, Tillikum yes was wild, but he's the only wild orca in captivity now and he's had 2 incidents, and no more are captured no longer for the parks.

When it comes to his babies...they swim with the mother and learn her instincts, not the father, and the mothers were originally bred in captivity too.

Lets just agree to disagree :thumbs:

 

[Jenstar]

I just think we are too advanced in society nowadays to be doing these kinds of things to animals. To me it's just wrong to keep whales and dolphins (which are creatures of huge intelligence) in captivity. Fundamentally it's not down to whether they take care of them or anything. Its if its actually right that we use these animals for our entertainment? The answer is no. It's not right! Ok :lock1: :thumbs:

 

[knokout1]

But the fact is they CAN NOT be released. Seaworld does rescue Orcas, from poor facilities or facilities that can't afford to have them anymore. That's where Tili comes from. And you can see marks on a lot of the Dolphins, hell the Dolphin nursery is in the park. The famous Winter the Dolphin was rescued by Seaworld, which drove 4 hours there and back in a volunteer effort, to keep him alive long enough to nurse him back to life. Seaworld didn't have the room, Clearwater Marine Aquarium did, and Winter has really breathed life into the Aquarium, which is more like a public nursery. These are the types of things Seaworld does. They care for the animals they have, at all times. I understand you think it's wrong for whales to be kept in captivity, but it's all they know, and all they will ever know, in the wild they will die. So don't blame Seaworld, they didn't put them there.

 

[andrew]

Dogs are domesticated creatures NOW, but they are wild animals at heart as well, have many wild instincts too. My point being is if you care for the animal, feed, it, love it, nurse it to heath and everything, that is not a bad thing right? The trainers at SW have that kind of relationship, and even more so with the ones bred in captivity.

And again, all of the orcas and dolphins that are bred in captivity guess what...are domesticated! Releasing them into the wild they will DIE, Tillikum yes was wild, but he's the only wild orca in captivity now and he's had 2 incidents, and no more are captured no longer for the parks.

Dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years. Dogs today have evolved to live hand in hand with human beings - they can read our faces, they can understand commands, they know how to respond to us pointing (fyi, monkeys can't). FWIW, humans have many wild instincts, too.

If I was an animal, I'd be all over living in a zoo. Protection, being lazy all day, not having to worry about your next meal. Let's be honest, most animals in zoos have it better than homeless people in this country. Watch Planet Earth to get an idea of how hard life is for these creatures in the wild.

But really? Being born in captivity does not mean an animal is domesticated.

 

[Brian G.]

And you can see marks on a lot of the Dolphins

Actually, that comes from dolphins doing that to each other whenever they have a disagreement.

 

[neoshinok]

This is clearly a heated topic, which is really a good thing because it shows just how much people care for animals, on both sides of the fence so to speak. I also disagree with keeping aquatic mammals captive and I refuse to attend SeaWorld for that reason. (And believe be, I REALLY want to ride Manta Obviously these animals couldn't and shouldn't be released into the wild, but the practice of active breeding for the sole purpose of having new animals to put on display and profit from is wrong (IMO) and should be stopped.
I will say that SeaWorld's treatment of their current animals seems to be about the best level of care one could hope for, in contrast to traveling circus' such as Ringling/Barnum and Bailey. I hope that anyone reading this would rule out ever attending and paying these institutions, because their treatment of animals during their shows, rehearsals and travel is abhorrent and cruel. World class zoos like Animal Kingdom and SeaWorld do what they can to keep their animals healthy and hopefully happy, but circus' featuring live animals should be outlawed or at least protested by anyone who cares about animals.

 

[Cupcakes]

So now the Enzian Theater is releasing it this Friday for anyone in the Orlando area that's interested in seeing it.

http://www.enzian.org/film/blackfish

I'm curious as to how big of crowds this movie is going to attract...