Brightline Station Coming to Orlando

[Happytycho]

Universal has begun obvious astroturfing efforts: Orlando's Right Rail

I don't really mind watching billionaires fight but it would be nice to actually get an intercity rail system out of this without Orange County taxpayers having to give away a bunch of money to said billionaires.

 

[GAcoaster]

So it may be more feasible to run the Brightline to I-Drive/Convention Center/EU than we were initially lead to believe. I wonder who could have mislead people trying to make sure it stays away from the tourist district?

 

[Happytycho]

So it may be more feasible to run the Brightline to I-Drive/Convention Center/EU than we were initially lead to believe. I wonder who could have mislead people trying to make sure it stays away from the tourist district?

Tourist district businesses have plenty of experience trying to fool people too.

Brightline being a private business means they really do have an incentive to choose the route that makes the most financial sense. I'm not saying that's how transit routes should be chosen, but I'm generally inclined to believe Brightline if they say the south route is more financially viable.

 

[GAcoaster]

Interesting turn of events, and it explains why we stopped hearing about the fight over the route for Brightline.

Brightline, SunRail pivot to fed money for tracks from Orlando airport

Brightline’s quest for passenger rail from Orlando’s airport to Disney World and Tampa is evolving toward a regional push to build a corridor for SunRail commuter trains from the airpor…

www.orlandosentinel.com

So it sounds like the Airport to WDW (and beyond to Tampa) is now planned to be built by Sun Rail using Federal infrastructure funds. This most likely will mean they build the Beachline/Convention Center route. Now the question will be about Disney and will they allow Sun Rail to stop on property like they were planning with Brightline? I'm sure part of the Brightline deal was they weren't planning any stops for other tourist spots.

The idea that Sun Rail runs the route makes more sense. Local entity with a vested interest in alleviating traffic and serving the locals. Just having it extend part of the way along I-4 towards Tampa would alleviate a LOT of traffic. All the people who work here in the tourist area being able to park in commuter lots and take a train to work at Disney/Universal/etc. would help with those insane backups on I-4 around Champions Gate and 27.

I look forward to being able to ride a train to Tampa and not have to make that drive some day...

 

[Nick]

Interesting turn of events, and it explains why we stopped hearing about the fight over the route for Brightline.

Brightline, SunRail pivot to fed money for tracks from Orlando airport

Brightline’s quest for passenger rail from Orlando’s airport to Disney World and Tampa is evolving toward a regional push to build a corridor for SunRail commuter trains from the airpor…

www.orlandosentinel.com

So it sounds like the Airport to WDW (and beyond to Tampa) is now planned to be built by Sun Rail using Federal infrastructure funds. This most likely will mean they build the Beachline/Convention Center route. Now the question will be about Disney and will they allow Sun Rail to stop on property like they were planning with Brightline? I'm sure part of the Brightline deal was they weren't planning any stops for other tourist spots.

The idea that Sun Rail runs the route makes more sense. Local entity with a vested interest in alleviating traffic and serving the locals. Just having it extend part of the way along I-4 towards Tampa would alleviate a LOT of traffic. All the people who work here in the tourist area being able to park in commuter lots and take a train to work at Disney/Universal/etc. would help with those insane backups on I-4 around Champions Gate and 27.

I look forward to being able to ride a train to Tampa and not have to make that drive some day...

This is pretty funny to me considering how Former Governor Voldemort DECLINED Federal money for a rail system like this because I guess that made him popular in the moment? It then took billions in private dollars to build a rail from Orlando to Miami and be a real thing. With Federal dollars in play, I think a line to Tampa could actually be MORE likely since I believe this money is coming from the recent infrastructure bill.

 

[JoeCamel]

This is pretty funny to me considering how Former Governor Voldemort DECLINED Federal money for a rail system like this because I guess that made him popular in the moment? It then took billions in private dollars to build a rail from Orlando to Miami and be a real thing. With Federal dollars in play, I think a line to Tampa could actually be MORE likely since I believe this money is coming from the recent infrastructure bill.

Voldy is scum but the reasons for declining the high speed rail money before were sound. The state would be on the hook for a bunch after the initial build with limited benefit
They did the track bed testing and even rebuilt a couple of bridges on the route so some of the work is done.

 

[GAcoaster]

And DeSantis could derail all of this again for the same reasons.

 

[OLSinFLA]

Interesting turn of events, and it explains why we stopped hearing about the fight over the route for Brightline.

Brightline, SunRail pivot to fed money for tracks from Orlando airport

Brightline’s quest for passenger rail from Orlando’s airport to Disney World and Tampa is evolving toward a regional push to build a corridor for SunRail commuter trains from the airpor…

www.orlandosentinel.com

So it sounds like the Airport to WDW (and beyond to Tampa) is now planned to be built by Sun Rail using Federal infrastructure funds. This most likely will mean they build the Beachline/Convention Center route. Now the question will be about Disney and will they allow Sun Rail to stop on property like they were planning with Brightline? I'm sure part of the Brightline deal was they weren't planning any stops for other tourist spots.

The idea that Sun Rail runs the route makes more sense. Local entity with a vested interest in alleviating traffic and serving the locals. Just having it extend part of the way along I-4 towards Tampa would alleviate a LOT of traffic. All the people who work here in the tourist area being able to park in commuter lots and take a train to work at Disney/Universal/etc. would help with those insane backups on I-4 around Champions Gate and 27.

I look forward to being able to ride a train to Tampa and not have to make that drive some day...

Fr4om bother article it sounded like Brightline would run to the airport, and go 528 to convention center. The Pine Castle station would serve as a sunrail/brightline transfer station. Brightline would run the 417 route to Disney and beyond

 

[OLSinFLA]

Voldy is scum but the reasons for declining the high speed rail money before were sound. The state would be on the hook for a bunch after the initial build with limited benefit
They did the track bed testing and even rebuilt a couple of bridges on the route so some of the work is done.

A report done but released after it was cancelled show that line would actually return a small profit. Meanwhile the funds still got used... just in California.

 

[Happytycho]

Time for some more intrigue regarding the potential for a Disney Springs station.

As part of their bond financing, each month Brightline publishes a report detailing their ridership, revenue, construction progress, and other business activity. A portion of these reports is on future expansion, and for many months that included section about Tampa covering their right of way negotiations with FDOT for I-4 and CFX for 417, as well as a section on Disney Springs discussing how they have a long term agreement to build a station at Disney Springs and they expect it to provide significant ridership.

Now, in the last two monthly reports, the Disney Springs section has been omitted entirely and the Tampa one replaced with a much more generic statement about extending to Tampa "including one or more stations to serve the theme parks and other major travel destinations along the corridor" with no mention of CFX/417.

Spoiler: Old Text

Tampa Extension

Our parent completed negotiations with the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) for right-of-way access rights in the I-4 corridor for rail infrastructure between Orlando and Tampa and anticipates executing final agreements with FDOT in early 2022. The ongoing negotiations with the Central Florida Expressway Authority (CFX) for right-of-way access rights in the State Road 417 (SR 417) corridor have progressed and are pending the outcome of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process and a Supplemental Environmental Impact Statement (SEIS) along the existing SR 417 corridor.

Disney Springs Station

We entered into a long-term agreement to develop, construct, and operate a station at Disney Springs subject to permitting, final design and our satisfaction of certain other obligations and obtaining all other necessary government approvals. Walt Disney World Resort is a highly visited destination, attracting millions of visitors annually, a significant number of whom originate along our corridor. The station at Disney Springs will provide a fast, convenient, and enjoyable alternative to driving or flying for the millions of trips made by guests traveling between South Florida and Orlando to visit the Walt Disney World Resort each year. As part of a future planned extension to Tampa, the station at Disney Springs could also serve the millions of annual visitors to Disney and Orlando originating from the Tampa area. The extension from the Orlando airport to the station at Disney Springs comprises a component of the Tampa extension for which we won the RFP process in November 2018. The RFP was issued by FDOT and CFX for the leasing of rights of way owned by FDOT and CFX to provide intercity passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa. We expect the station at Disney Springs to have a significant potential to increase our ridership, revenue, and EBITDA.

Spoiler: New Text

Tampa Extension

Our parent continues to advance plans for an extension to Tampa, including one or more stations to serve the theme parks and other major travel destinations along the corridor. We believe the extension to Tampa would expand and diversify our ridership and revenue and represents a logical next phase of our development in Florida. The potential extension from the Orlando airport to Tampa relates to the RFP process which we won in November 2018. The RFP was issued by FDOT and CFX for the leasing of rights of way owned by FDOT and CFX to provide intercity passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa

Obviously that's not a great sign for the prospects of a future Disney Springs station. The big question now is whether a Disney station has been cancelled entirely or just the old plans for the DS station.

For the southern/417 routing, it had become relatively clear that the plans for the Disney Springs station were to have stub ended ("terminal") station on a roughly north/south axis along the eastern edge of the Team Disney parking lot with trains approaching from the south and the platform/tracks extending north across Buena Vista Drive to passenger facilities incorporated into the east side of the Orange garage. Under the northern route, with the tracks instead coming down I-4 from the northeast, that layout won't work.

It remains to be seen what the alternative Disney station layout will be, or if there will even be one at all, given the train related fights that have happened over the years.

 

[Nick]

Time for some more intrigue regarding the potential for a Disney Springs station.

As part of their bond financing, each month Brightline publishes a report detailing their ridership, revenue, construction progress, and other business activity. A portion of these reports is on future expansion, and for many months that included section about Tampa covering their right of way negotiations with FDOT for I-4 and CFX for 417, as well as a section on Disney Springs discussing how they have a long term agreement to build a station at Disney Springs and they expect it to provide significant ridership.

Now, in the last two monthly reports, the Disney Springs section has been omitted entirely and the Tampa one replaced with a much more generic statement about extending to Tampa "including one or more stations to serve the theme parks and other major travel destinations along the corridor" with no mention of CFX/417.

Spoiler: Old Text

Tampa Extension

Our parent completed negotiations with the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) for right-of-way access rights in the I-4 corridor for rail infrastructure between Orlando and Tampa and anticipates executing final agreements with FDOT in early 2022. The ongoing negotiations with the Central Florida Expressway Authority (CFX) for right-of-way access rights in the State Road 417 (SR 417) corridor have progressed and are pending the outcome of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process and a Supplemental Environmental Impact Statement (SEIS) along the existing SR 417 corridor.

Disney Springs Station

We entered into a long-term agreement to develop, construct, and operate a station at Disney Springs subject to permitting, final design and our satisfaction of certain other obligations and obtaining all other necessary government approvals. Walt Disney World Resort is a highly visited destination, attracting millions of visitors annually, a significant number of whom originate along our corridor. The station at Disney Springs will provide a fast, convenient, and enjoyable alternative to driving or flying for the millions of trips made by guests traveling between South Florida and Orlando to visit the Walt Disney World Resort each year. As part of a future planned extension to Tampa, the station at Disney Springs could also serve the millions of annual visitors to Disney and Orlando originating from the Tampa area. The extension from the Orlando airport to the station at Disney Springs comprises a component of the Tampa extension for which we won the RFP process in November 2018. The RFP was issued by FDOT and CFX for the leasing of rights of way owned by FDOT and CFX to provide intercity passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa. We expect the station at Disney Springs to have a significant potential to increase our ridership, revenue, and EBITDA.

Spoiler: New Text

Tampa Extension

Our parent continues to advance plans for an extension to Tampa, including one or more stations to serve the theme parks and other major travel destinations along the corridor. We believe the extension to Tampa would expand and diversify our ridership and revenue and represents a logical next phase of our development in Florida. The potential extension from the Orlando airport to Tampa relates to the RFP process which we won in November 2018. The RFP was issued by FDOT and CFX for the leasing of rights of way owned by FDOT and CFX to provide intercity passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa

Obviously that's not a great sign for the prospects of a future Disney Springs station. The big question now is whether a Disney station has been cancelled entirely or just the old plans for the DS station.

For the southern/417 routing, it had become relatively clear that the plans for the Disney Springs station were to have stub ended ("terminal") station on a roughly north/south axis along the eastern edge of the Team Disney parking lot with trains approaching from the south and the platform/tracks extending north across Buena Vista Drive to passenger facilities incorporated into the east side of the Orange garage. Under the northern route, with the tracks instead coming down I-4 from the northeast, that layout won't work.

It remains to be seen what the alternative Disney station layout will be, or if there will even be one at all, given the train related fights that have happened over the years.

I would say this is more to do about the debate about the route that the Orlando line will take - either the cost effective straight to Disney line or the more complicated, but better for Orlando MCO to I-Dive to Disney line.

In turn, that affects the Tampa line because that line isn't happening until AFTER they settle on and start building an Orlando line.

 

[Happytycho]

I would say this is more to do about the debate about the route that the Orlando line will take - either the cost effective straight to Disney line or the more complicated, but better for Orlando MCO to I-Dive to Disney line.

In turn, that affects the Tampa line because that line isn't happening until AFTER they settle on and start building an Orlando line.

Right, this is definitely connected to the announcement that the northern route still has life.

The notable part is Brightline withdrawing/omitting the public commitment to building a Disney Springs station. It's not surprising but wasn't a given considering there is nothing about the northern route that precludes a station at Disney Springs from a technical perspective since the tracks will still run right past it along I-4.

 

[Nemesis Inferno]

Time for some more intrigue regarding the potential for a Disney Springs station.

As part of their bond financing, each month Brightline publishes a report detailing their ridership, revenue, construction progress, and other business activity. A portion of these reports is on future expansion, and for many months that included section about Tampa covering their right of way negotiations with FDOT for I-4 and CFX for 417, as well as a section on Disney Springs discussing how they have a long term agreement to build a station at Disney Springs and they expect it to provide significant ridership.

Now, in the last two monthly reports, the Disney Springs section has been omitted entirely and the Tampa one replaced with a much more generic statement about extending to Tampa "including one or more stations to serve the theme parks and other major travel destinations along the corridor" with no mention of CFX/417.

Spoiler: Old Text

Tampa Extension

Our parent completed negotiations with the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) for right-of-way access rights in the I-4 corridor for rail infrastructure between Orlando and Tampa and anticipates executing final agreements with FDOT in early 2022. The ongoing negotiations with the Central Florida Expressway Authority (CFX) for right-of-way access rights in the State Road 417 (SR 417) corridor have progressed and are pending the outcome of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process and a Supplemental Environmental Impact Statement (SEIS) along the existing SR 417 corridor.

Disney Springs Station

We entered into a long-term agreement to develop, construct, and operate a station at Disney Springs subject to permitting, final design and our satisfaction of certain other obligations and obtaining all other necessary government approvals. Walt Disney World Resort is a highly visited destination, attracting millions of visitors annually, a significant number of whom originate along our corridor. The station at Disney Springs will provide a fast, convenient, and enjoyable alternative to driving or flying for the millions of trips made by guests traveling between South Florida and Orlando to visit the Walt Disney World Resort each year. As part of a future planned extension to Tampa, the station at Disney Springs could also serve the millions of annual visitors to Disney and Orlando originating from the Tampa area. The extension from the Orlando airport to the station at Disney Springs comprises a component of the Tampa extension for which we won the RFP process in November 2018. The RFP was issued by FDOT and CFX for the leasing of rights of way owned by FDOT and CFX to provide intercity passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa. We expect the station at Disney Springs to have a significant potential to increase our ridership, revenue, and EBITDA.

Spoiler: New Text

Tampa Extension

Our parent continues to advance plans for an extension to Tampa, including one or more stations to serve the theme parks and other major travel destinations along the corridor. We believe the extension to Tampa would expand and diversify our ridership and revenue and represents a logical next phase of our development in Florida. The potential extension from the Orlando airport to Tampa relates to the RFP process which we won in November 2018. The RFP was issued by FDOT and CFX for the leasing of rights of way owned by FDOT and CFX to provide intercity passenger rail service between Orlando and Tampa

Obviously that's not a great sign for the prospects of a future Disney Springs station. The big question now is whether a Disney station has been cancelled entirely or just the old plans for the DS station.

For the southern/417 routing, it had become relatively clear that the plans for the Disney Springs station were to have stub ended ("terminal") station on a roughly north/south axis along the eastern edge of the Team Disney parking lot with trains approaching from the south and the platform/tracks extending north across Buena Vista Drive to passenger facilities incorporated into the east side of the Orange garage. Under the northern route, with the tracks instead coming down I-4 from the northeast, that layout won't work.

It remains to be seen what the alternative Disney station layout will be, or if there will even be one at all, given the train related fights that have happened over the years.

Yeah if Disney was aiming for a terminal, any through train would not work. Or at least not work without reversing which would be possible but annoying operationally compared to a normal through, especially as the airport would be the more realistic crew change/terminus station with through capability

The text removal suggests the non direct disney plan is being looked at, as it hasn't been subtle that disney wanted direct from the airport and direct only.

Worse comes to worse this may mean a station on non disney property, but connections to the bus network

 

[Nick]

Yeah if Disney was aiming for a terminal, any through train would not work. Or at least not work without reversing which would be possible but annoying operationally compared to a normal through, especially as the airport would be the more realistic crew change/terminus station with through capability

The text removal suggests the non direct disney plan is being looked at, as it hasn't been subtle that disney wanted direct from the airport and direct only.

Worse comes to worse this may mean a station on non disney property, but connections to the bus network

It is being looked at and Disney will have no real say with the decision they come to since this won't be a private line like the rest of Brightline. This rail is going to be paid for with Federal infrastructure money, so Brightline doesn't really care if they go the "more expensive" way (through the tourist Corridor ending up at Disney Springs instead of straight to DS). Brightline would benefit from more people using the service because it stops at other places than just Disney, too.

 

[GAcoaster]

New update (not sure if this should become its own thread):

Universal, SunRail, Brightline eye $1B rail expansion from Orlando airport to I-Drive

A presentation Thursday called the “first salvo” by Orlando’s mayor shows Brightline, SunRail and Universal working toward building passenger-rail tracks from Orlando’s airp…

www.orlandosentinel.com

This is essentially a whole new line separate from the existing Brightline plans, and Universal and an I-Drive business group are pledging financial support:

"As part of the presentation and for the first time publicly, Universal and International Drive partners disclosed pledges of $125 million for rail and station construction, 13 acres for a station site, a guaranteed $13 million in annual ticket sales and $2 million annually for maintenance.

The budding partnership is a major turnaround from an acrimonious dispute over Brightline’s initial plan to skip I-Drive on its way from Orlando’s airport to Walt Disney World and then Tampa because of costs."

 

[Happytycho]

New update (not sure if this should become its own thread):

Universal, SunRail, Brightline eye $1B rail expansion from Orlando airport to I-Drive

A presentation Thursday called the “first salvo” by Orlando’s mayor shows Brightline, SunRail and Universal working toward building passenger-rail tracks from Orlando’s airp…

www.orlandosentinel.com

This is essentially a whole new line separate from the existing Brightline plans, and Universal and an I-Drive business group are pledging financial support:

"As part of the presentation and for the first time publicly, Universal and International Drive partners disclosed pledges of $125 million for rail and station construction, 13 acres for a station site, a guaranteed $13 million in annual ticket sales and $2 million annually for maintenance.

The budding partnership is a major turnaround from an acrimonious dispute over Brightline’s initial plan to skip I-Drive on its way from Orlando’s airport to Walt Disney World and then Tampa because of costs."

The proposed E-W SunRail will be a separate service from Brightline, but both are going to be running on the same tracks along 528/I-4 between the airport and Disney, and Brightline will likely still be making a significant financial contribution to constructing the shared tracks.

It does feel like this project should now have a presence outside of the WDW subforum, but I imagine having multiple separate threads covering the planning/funding/construction of a single piece of infrastructure could get pretty confusing.

I'm really happy to see Universal/I-drive putting money where their mouth is and contributing to the project, but their contribution is still pretty small in the big picture and leaves a lot of money yet to be found.

 

[GAcoaster]

It's great to hear Universal and the I-Drive folks are offering about 10% of the funding, essentially coughing up the cost of the Kirkman Rd extension (which the county is footing the bill for)

 

[Happytycho]

SunRail has now posted the slides from the workshop yesterday: CFCRC Meetings | SunRail Corporate
(it's the first item under meeting downloads).

There isn't anything too surprising in the slides, but they do consistently refer to the south I-drive station as south I-drive rather than Disney, and one of the maps appears to show that station as being in the south quadrant of the I-4/536 interchange rather than to the north at Disney Springs. It really feels like the station at Disney Springs is no longer happening.

I hope we get some more details on what Universal's contribution actually is, because the slides say "Based upon its investment in Epic Universe, Universal will support the dedicated entity’s financing of up to $125 million in private activity bonds to be used to fund the rail corridor and the Convention Center station" and the cynic in me doesn't read that as Universal simply giving $125 million.

The slides also describe the $13 million ticket guarantee as "the current estimated operating cost for seven-day/365-day a year operation of this corridor," which seems really unrealistically low, even with some creative accounting.

 

[Nick]

SunRail has now posted the slides from the workshop yesterday: CFCRC Meetings | SunRail Corporate
(it's the first item under meeting downloads).

There isn't anything too surprising in the slides, but they do consistently refer to the south I-drive station as south I-drive rather than Disney, and one of the maps appears to show that station as being in the south quadrant of the I-4/536 interchange rather than to the north at Disney Springs. It really feels like the station at Disney Springs is no longer happening.

I hope we get some more details on what Universal's contribution actually is, because the slides say "Based upon its investment in Epic Universe, Universal will support the dedicated entity’s financing of up to $125 million in private activity bonds to be used to fund the rail corridor and the Convention Center station" and the cynic in me doesn't read that as Universal simply giving $125 million.

The slides also describe the $13 million ticket guarantee as "the current estimated operating cost for seven-day/365-day a year operation of this corridor," which seems really unrealistically low, even with some creative accounting.

I have a hard time believing that Disney is going to just watch this be built to send people straight to their competitor without them having a stop on the line. I have to think they'll pony up to not be left out of this. It also won't help Sunrail/Brightline for Disney not to be on the line since that's where at least half of the tourists are heading anyway.

The best possible rail line we can hope for is one that stops on I-Drive/OCCC, Universal, and Disney. It would hit up any place tourists are looking to go (for the most part) and have the highest likelihood at being profitable. Also being connected to MCO, Cocoa, West Palm Beach, Ft Lauderdale, and Miami also helps. Future potential Tampa and Jacksonville connections would only strengthen the system.

 

[fryoj]

SunRail has now posted the slides from the workshop yesterday: CFCRC Meetings | SunRail Corporate
(it's the first item under meeting downloads).

There isn't anything too surprising in the slides, but they do consistently refer to the south I-drive station as south I-drive rather than Disney, and one of the maps appears to show that station as being in the south quadrant of the I-4/536 interchange rather than to the north at Disney Springs. It really feels like the station at Disney Springs is no longer happening.

I hope we get some more details on what Universal's contribution actually is, because the slides say "Based upon its investment in Epic Universe, Universal will support the dedicated entity’s financing of up to $125 million in private activity bonds to be used to fund the rail corridor and the Convention Center station" and the cynic in me doesn't read that as Universal simply giving $125 million.

The slides also describe the $13 million ticket guarantee as "the current estimated operating cost for seven-day/365-day a year operation of this corridor," which seems really unrealistically low, even with some creative accounting.

It says they'll be giving 13 acres for the station. That's probably a big chunk of it.