Epcot Forever

[UniversalRBLX]

Nighttime shows by property:

Disneyland - it has to touch the heart of our most endearing fans
Paris - it has to be epic
Tokyo - it has to be grand in scale
HK - just give us whatever Disneyland in Cali gets
Shanghai - here's a bunch of cash, do something insane

WDW - they're tourists, what do they know? put a big boom at the end

 

[Magic Feather]

Oh I agree they look terrible, it's just they put a lot of time into building infrastructure into the lake so that these things could permanently live out there. It's not going to be a quick process to undo everything that was done.

When you think of how much money they spent on both Harmonious and Rivers of Light combined and for them both to already basically be dead in the water after spending I wanna say close to a combined $500M on these two projects it's just sad. Both projects were insanely expensive, were extremely unpopular, and ultimately ended up being a waste of resources.

Think of what they could've done with the money they spent on these two lame duck projects. That money definitely could've gone to fixing Dinoland at the very least and then the money that they're talking about spending for DAK right now could've been allocated towards DHS to continue sprucing up that park.

Both of those shows are to blame on Steve Davision as well. Looking at his resume, he's been the lead behind great projects all over the world. For some reason, he just can't seem to put together a good nighttime show at WDW, though. The best thing he's done in recent memory is Festival of Fantasy at MK and as good of a parade as it is, it's just a daytime parade. It's not the big nighttime spectacle everyone looks forward to.

But the funny thing is, neither show was that unpopular with guests. Harmonious still outperformed Epcot Forever and Rivers of Light was more of a "meh" reaction than anything else. The problem, moreso, seems to be Disney building new nighttime spectacular infrastructure in DAK that wasn't "plug and play." They tried to make it work with whatever that second version of RoL was but it clearly didn't work. Funnily enough, Harm was supposedly built to be plug and play, but the show infrastructure was so bad to where that over took it. That said though, when it comes to Harm specifically, this had to be some higher up's drive that is getting it fully replaced so soon. Disney's let things that would be cheaper to replace with lower GSAT ratings go longer. Sure, ratings and feedback do support a change, but not one that involves throwing out over a hundred million dollars worth of work. I guess long story short, this feels really weird.

Also, Steve Davison was definitely involved with Harmonious, but he had no part in RoL iirc.

If I was Disney I'd take all the barges backstage and rework them to remove all the screens and moving elements. Turn them into pyro/fountain barges with maybe water screens. Then rework the Stargate into something *better*.

It's rather astonishing just how bad Disney is with nighttime shows now. It's mind-boggling - 0/3 with new ones. Universal has a better track record now!

*1/4 ;-)
Honestly this is (based on pure speculation) what I expect to happen. Still have a similar barge formation to take advantage of the docking points and the metric crud ton of electrical that went into the lagoon before the barges even showed up. Some type of central barge that is completely different than the stargate (would kill for inferno 2.0). Some barges where the tacos were that would probably have fountains and some pyro capabilities

Nighttime shows by property:

Disneyland - it has to touch the heart of our most endearing fans
Paris - it has to be epic
Tokyo - it has to be grand in scale
HK - just give us whatever Disneyland in Cali gets
Shanghai - here's a bunch of cash, do something insane

WDW - they're tourists, what do they know? put a big boom at the end

Yeah... that's an insanely inaccurate characterization.

 

[HandsomePete]

after spending I wanna say close to a combined $500M on these two projects

That's almost 3X too high, but your point is valid... to spend that much and get nothing is bad.

That said though, when it comes to Harm specifically, this had to be some higher up's drive that is getting it fully replaced so soon. Disney's let things that would be cheaper to replace with lower GSAT ratings go longer. Sure, ratings and feedback do support a change, but not one that involves throwing out over a hundred million dollars worth of work. I guess long story short, this feels really weird.

This is what gets me... in a company where the write-off is usually a genuine hurdle to fixing recent mistakes, there's actually a drive to write it off and turn the page (or more accurately, drastically shorten the useful life). The only big write-off I can think of was Lights Motors Action, but that was to make way Galaxy's Edge and less than all of the work it took to prep for DLR's version.

 

[Nick]

That's almost 3X too high, but your point is valid... to spend that much and get nothing is bad.

I was just throwing out a blanket guess of $150M-$250M per show given how Disney spends their money and knowing that both of these shows were insanely expensive. My point being, I guess I wouldn't have been surprised if that's what you told me the cost was for these dumpster fires.

But the funny thing is, neither show was that unpopular with guests. Harmonious still outperformed Epcot Forever and Rivers of Light was more of a "meh" reaction than anything else.

Harmonious I can enjoy from certain spots as i've said and I guess maybe the Disney IPs put it ahead of Epcot Forever, but honestly, I really feel like Epcot Forever is a much better overall fireworks show while Harmonious is just more of a spectacle.

When it comes to Rivers of Light, I really wanted to like that show. It just felt like nothing happened in it, it was overly long, and the garden hoses they used for mist screens were terrible. A show can succeed without pyro as we've seen with World of Color. I do think it's a tough task though to make work, though.

Also, Steve Davison was definitely involved with Harmonious, but he had no part in RoL iirc.

My mistake, Steve Davison did originally propose Rivers of Light, but it was when it was going to be a light parade around the park. That ended up getting shelved and turned into the show that we got eventually (probably because DAK is not a park that has a good layout for parades nor good parade storage after Pandora took a lot away).

I do feel like RoL probably would've made a really cool light parade though.

 

[Tobias]

I agree this entire situation has been rather weird, but that's more due to them putting so much money and time into Harmonious, only to close it so soon. And while I've seen a good chunk of people theorize that they're not getting rid of the barges due to the money/time spent on them, I honestly don't see them lasting in the long run in their current state. If it's true that ops despise them and they're such a pain to maintain, it can get to a point where it's just better to admit and cut your losses before the money pit keeps racking up.

I recall not too long ago seeing that there are those in WDI who referred to Harmonious as "The Mistake on the Lake", and its closure/replacement lends credence to that.

I just hope they get their act together and give us an awesome new nighttime show, it's really strange that a company that's usually been pretty solid with them over in the states is just stumbling on them recently. I've been getting a better track record with HHN fountain shows since 2 out of 3 ain't bad, as WDW has yet to give me at least 1.

 

[Nick]

It's too bad that they demolished the central world barge for IllumiNations, otherwise they could've brought back a fan favorite with relative ease. I have to think creating a new (and different) version of IllumiNations actually wouldn't be all that hard. There's been so many different versions of IllumiNations over the years anyway. Get rid of the four giant screens around the lake and renovate the middle barge to fit within the context of the new show (and also making it movable so it's not constantly in the middle of the lagoon).

HK - just give us whatever Disneyland in Cali gets

This used to be the case, but now HK has to be even more grand with their new castle.

 

[SkiBum]

It's too bad that they demolished the central world barge for IllumiNations, otherwise they could've brought back a fan favorite with relative ease. I have to think creating a new (and different) version of IllumiNations actually wouldn't be all that hard. There's been so many different versions of IllumiNations over the years anyway. Get rid of the four giant screens around the lake and renovate the middle barge to fit within the context of the new show (and also making it movable so it's not constantly in the middle of the lagoon).

Wait, you can see those black set pieces after we carefully disguised them with sprays of water? Next thing you're going to say is that you can see the ride building for Guardians, which can't be possible since we painted it with our special blue paint.

 

[Tobias]

Get rid of the four giant screens around the lake and renovate the middle barge to fit within the context of the new show (and also making it movable so it's not constantly in the middle of the lagoon).

Adding to that, whatever the new replacement show is, I'd prefer it going back to a 360-degree show. The limited viewing angles certainly hurt Harmonious, and it's a waste of World Showcase to not give everyone a good view.

 

[OrlLover]

Sometimes it's better for a company to just get rid of a money sucking unpopular operation (like the barges), write it off, and end it's life. Otherwise it becomes a never ending money pit,
and serves no purpose, especially since it's existence conjures up so much negativism. Swallow your pride, fire those responsible (everyone could see it was a bad idea except for some
arrogant out of touch Imagineers) , and go forward with something else.

I think you should replace Imagineers with executives.

 

[Happytycho]

I'd love to understand the logic and financial/business cases that Disney has used for their nighttime spectacular decisions over the last decade.

They spend so much on each new show and their success rate is so low that it seems like there should be more status quo bias (keeping old but popular shows) than has actually happened.

 

[Nick]

I'd love to understand the logic and financial/business cases that Disney has used for their nighttime spectacular decisions over the last decade.

They spend so much on each new show and their success rate is so low that it seems like there should be more status quo bias (keeping old but popular shows) than has actually happened.

I'm happy that they've replaced older shows, but I wish they were actually replacing them with good shows.

 

[shiekra38]

...So...is this temporary for the 100th or is it going to run for 20 years

I don't think it's good enough to last more than a year

 

[Nick]

...So...is this temporary for the 100th or is it going to run for 20 years

I don't think it's good enough to last more than a year

It's supposed to be an interim show again.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

I'd love to understand the logic and financial/business cases that Disney has used for their nighttime spectacular decisions over the last decade.

They spend so much on each new show and their success rate is so low that it seems like there should be more status quo bias (keeping old but popular shows) than has actually happened.

My best guess is they're seeing less demand for dining packages/parties and scoring low in satisfaction ratings. Whenever I pass the dessert parties at MK it always looks like there are only 20-30 guests.

 

[Happytycho]

My best guess is they're seeing less demand for dining packages/parties and scoring low in satisfaction ratings. Whenever I pass the dessert parties at MK it always looks like there are only 20-30 guests.

Was HEA also performing poorly at the end of its run?

I'm curious how just keeping HEA would have compared financially to what they've actually done where they're now headed into a second round of development costs.
And the same question for simply updating Illuminations tech vs Epcot Forever and Harmonious.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

Was HEA also performing poorly at the end of its run?

I'm curious how just keeping HEA would have compared financially to what they've actually done where they're now headed into a second round of development costs.
And the same question for simply updating Illuminations tech vs Epcot Forever and Harmonious.

HEA should have been easy to update with new IPs and a nostalgic tag.

Epcot Forever was a temporary show, so you can't really hold anything against it and I'm sure it was cheap to run.

Harmonious is the odd one. No idea how modern Disney approved such a ridiculous cost for that equipment (after RoL) when they know all you really need is a compelling soundtrack, fireworks, and some lasers to create a good show.

 

[Mad Dog]

HEA should have been easy to update with new IPs and a nostalgic tag.

Epcot Forever was a temporary show, so you can't really hold anything against it and I'm sure it was cheap to run.

Harmonious is the odd one. No idea how modern Disney approved such a ridiculous cost for that equipment (after RoL) when they know all you really need is a compelling soundtrack, fireworks, and some lasers to create a good show.

If you can't put together a good night time show with all the resources Disney has (IP, songs, budget, etc.) then you shouldn't be working as an Imagineer. You have to be pretty
lame to come up with a bad show.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

If you can't put together a good night time show with all the resources Disney has (IP, songs, budget, etc.) then you shouldn't be working as an Imagineer. You have to be pretty
lame to come up with a bad show.

Technology is great, but sometimes people just want a great "easy-to-understand" experience. Imagineering/Entertainment Team does great work, but sometimes they overcomplicate the assignment (Smugglers Run, etc.) and forget that these things need to be practical for daily use (maintenance costs, no shade in TSL, etc.)

 

[Mad Dog]

Technology is great, but sometimes people just want a great "easy-to-understand" experience. Imagineering/Entertainment Team does great work, but sometimes they overcomplicate the assignment (Smugglers Run, etc.) and forget that these things need to be practical for daily use (maintenance costs, no shade in TSL, etc.)

Yes, no shade in Toy Story Land was a prime example of Imagineers living in air conditioned offices that rarely ever actually visit a theme park as a tourist, not as a babied VIP.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

Show returns April 3, 2023.