Skull Island: Reign of Kong - General Discussion

[JungleSkip]

Those same people would also like to see rides in great working condition. No broken (or completely missing) animatronics on rides, guns that actually work on MIB, etc.

Sure. But if they had the voice between rides being open while maintenance is performed, and rides being closed, they’re picking the first

 

[belloq87]

May I suggest stop looking at things so black and white?

Kong's alleged issue is that the temple door entryway is causing hell on the ride vehicles, and they can't close down the ride because every other ride has needs for refurbishment and maintenance - which were exacerbated by said hurricane... This is why JPRA, ET, MIB are getting fixed while remaining open, allowing UO to do little by little overnight.

The other option would be to close every problematic attraction.

But what would you like them to do? Shut down half the park?

Pick an attraction, close it, and fix it. Then move on to the next, one at a time, until these attractions are in as close to fully-operational condition as possible.

You can understand why those of us who aren't privy to inside information can get frustrated, right? In the absence of any official communication from the company, all we can see and judge is the condition of the attractions before us.

And I'm sympathetic to the hurricane situation, but what's a reasonable amount of leeway that should still be buying Universal a year later (and beyond)?

 

[Tbad556]

Pick an attraction, close it, and fix it. Then move on to the next, one at a time, until these attractions are in as close to fully-operational condition as possible.

You can understand why those of us who aren't privy to inside information can get frustrated, right? In the absence of any official communication from the company, all we can see and judge is the condition of the attractions before us.

And I'm sympathetic to the hurricane situation, but what's a reasonable amount of leeway that should still be buying Universal a year later (and beyond)?

See, but they're largely doing just that.

January - JPRA refurb
February - Hagrid refurb, Popeyes refurb
March & April - Me Ship refurb
June - Forbidden Journey refurb
August - HRRR refurb
October - Ripsaw refurb
December - Hogwarts Express refurb

Being worked on without closures: JPRA, Popeye, Cat, ET, MIB, Kong, etc.

They do both. You can't on one hand say that too much in the park is shut down right now and on the other hand yell that they need to shut down all of their prime rides over animatronic woes that can, and are, being fixed without having to remove them entirely from the guest experience.

On top of all of the above, Wimpys, Starbucks, Mel's, Circus, the ticketing gates, and way more all got major work done this year.

Things are constantly being worked on in the parks. Nothing is just being straight up ignored. It's fine to feel frustrated with a lack of insight sometimes, but it also doesn't mean jumping straight into "the parks are in disarray and nobody cares" territory. Things aren't always as simple as forum-goers think to fix (it's frequently not as easy as "just throw some money at it") and a lot of times, a lot of repairs are happening that no one on here even knows are issues because they're dealt with so swiftly and efficiently. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[belloq87]

Things are constantly being worked on in the parks. Nothing is just being straight up ignored. It's fine to feel frustrated with a lack of insight sometimes, but it also doesn't mean jumping straight into "the parks are in disarray and nobody cares" territory. Things aren't always as simple as forum-goers think to fix (it's frequently not as easy as "just throw some money at it") and a lot of times, a lot of repairs are happening that no one on here even knows are issues because they're dealt with so swiftly and efficiently. It's the nature of the beast.

Nobody has ever made the case that nothing is ever being worked on.

But again, we're 7 - 8 months into a situation where a major scene has been compromised on one ride (JPRA) and several weeks (or months?) of an entire scene being bypassed on another (Skull Island). If you think that's reasonable, then fine!

Caveat: Hoping the report that the lagoon scene on River Adventure has finally been restored is true.

You can't on one hand say that too much in the park is shut down right now and on the other hand yell that they need to shut down all of their prime rides over animatronic woes that can, and are, being fixed without having to remove them entirely from the guest experience.

I think letting showbuildings and theaters sit empty indefinitely is a little different than temporarily closing a ride to fix things.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

See, but they're largely doing just that.

January - JPRA refurb
February - Hagrid refurb, Popeyes refurb
March & April - Me Ship refurb
June - Forbidden Journey refurb
August - HRRR refurb
October - Ripsaw refurb
December - Hogwarts Express refurb

Being worked on without closures: JPRA, Popeye, Cat, ET, MIB, Kong, etc.

They do both. You can't on one hand say that too much in the park is shut down right now and on the other hand yell that they need to shut down all of their prime rides over animatronic woes that can, and are, being fixed without having to remove them entirely from the guest experience.

All of the refurbs you mentioned are all routine maintenance. My issue is that Universal doesn't do major refurbs of their parks from a show-quality/guest-facing perspective until recently with Mummy & the small infrastructure projects throughout the parks. JPRA was looking rough these past few years (should have been updated years ago), it just became more noticeable/obvious once they removed the Ultrasaur and placed a chainlink fence, and kept the thing open which is now being highlighted by even regular guests who previously may have not been bothered by its broken neck.

On top of all of the above, Wimpys, Starbucks, Mel's, Circus, the ticketing gates, and way more all got major work done this year.

In Circus/Mel's case, they let the place get run down until it became a major problem - Mel's was in really poor shape earlier this year.

Things are constantly being worked on in the parks. Nothing is just being straight up ignored. It's fine to feel frustrated with a lack of insight sometimes, but it also doesn't mean jumping straight into "the parks are in disarray and nobody cares" territory. Things aren't always as simple as forum-goers think to fix (it's frequently not as easy as "just throw some money at it") and a lot of times, a lot of repairs are happening that no one on here even knows are issues because they're dealt with so swiftly and efficiently. It's the nature of the beast.

Nobody is saying it's an easy fix, we're just frustrated that our beloved attractions don't get the proper maintenance they should be getting in the first place.

It's just fascinating to see the difference in ridicule that WDW gets for lack of maintenance, while Universal gets away with stuff that we fans should call them out for.

 

[Brian G.]

It's just fascinating to see the difference in ridicule that WDW gets for lack of maintenance, while Universal gets away with stuff that we fans should call them out for.

Let's not start this. No one here is doing that.

Pick an attraction, close it, and fix it. Then move on to the next, one at a time, until these attractions are in as close to fully-operational condition as possible.

You can understand why those of us who aren't privy to inside information can get frustrated, right? In the absence of any official communication from the company, all we can see and judge is the condition of the attractions before us.

And I'm sympathetic to the hurricane situation, but what's a reasonable amount of leeway that should still be buying Universal a year later (and beyond)?

UO plans maintenance months in advance. A lot of these attractions were set for normal maintenance - and then you get hit with a record-breaking storm that took out Dudley, JPRA, Poseidon, the lagoon show, the Hogwarts nighttime show projectors, etc...

So now everything that was scheduled gets pushed back while still rebounding back from COVID AND trying to open (and play catch up) with Epic... there's going to be some delays or alternative solutions. I mean in one thread we're complaining they took away entertainment due to the storm, but here we're mad they're not closing a ride due to the storm...

Universal is a business and cannot think like a fan. Yes, it does suck that a scene is missing or needs fixing - but for every Belloq, there's a JungleSkip - and if the ride (in Kong's case) is 90% operational, they're going to keep it open. Put it this way, McDonald's ain't gonna close down shop if the ice cream machine is broken, but if the grill is broken... that's a different story.

 

[Tbad556]

Nobody has ever made the case that nothing is ever being worked on.

But again, we're 7 - 8 months into a situation where a major scene has been compromised on one ride (JPRA) and several weeks (or months?) of an entire scene being bypassed on another (Skull Island). If you think that's reasonable, then fine!

Caveat: Hoping the report that the lagoon scene on River Adventure has finally been restored is true.


I think letting showbuildings and theaters sit empty indefinitely is a little different than temporarily closing a ride to fix things.

I'll just go ahead and quote myself for the JPRA portion.

Whether attractions should be operating far beyond their point limit (looking at you, JPRA) is one valid discussion

The JPRA situation sucks and I don't agree with how it was dealt with. My disagreement with y'all is taking that situation and stretching it out into acting like a large chunk of other rides are in disarray and should be shut down ASAP when they're being dealt with.

The Kong situation sucks and I commented on it back in August myself. It's been stated that it's an issue with "truck tires having trouble navigating the outdoor terrain" and techs have been working on it for months. However, the ride has a B-Mode that keeps it show ready for guests as much as it sucks to miss it. There's no reason to shut down the whole ride when they're going to be working on it either way.

I think a lot of you upset about the issues are equating explaining to defending. Almost a "shooting the messenger" situation. I don't love the JPRA situation, but I do know they've been working on it and the ultrasaur may finally be fixed. I haven't been on Kong since the outdoor portion went down and probably won't until it's fixed, but I know it's a very challenging issue to repair and don't think guests should miss the whole ride because of it. I'd love to see LC/Zelda expand the park further backstage, but I also know that building is incredibly essential and very unlikely to go anytime soon. I've seen plenty of disarray in the parks over the years from working in them. I absolutely hear the complaints. I hear the dreams. I just also think there's more to the discussion than just throwing the whole situation into a burning heap of "park bad".

All of the refurbs you mentioned are all routine maintenance. My issue is that Universal doesn't do major refurbs of their parks from a show-quality/guest-facing perspective until recently with Mummy & the small infrastructure projects throughout the parks. JPRA was looking rough these past few years (should have been updated years ago), it just became more noticeable/obvious once they removed the Ultrasaur and placed a chainlink fence, and kept the thing open which is now being highlighted by even regular guests who previously may have not been bothered by its broken neck.



In Circus/Mel's case, they let the place get run down until it became a major problem - Mel's was in really poor shape earlier this year.



Nobody is saying it's an easy fix, we're just frustrated that our beloved attractions don't get the proper maintenance they should be getting in the first place.

It's just fascinating to see the difference in ridicule that WDW gets for lack of maintenance, while Universal gets away with stuff that we fans should call them out for.

They absolutely were not all routine (Hagrids for example), but that's beyond the point.

As for the WDW comment, you're talking to the wrong guy tbh. I genuinely don't tend to complain about either. I go to the parks, I have fun, and I go home. I don't think something as simple as a gun on MIB not working or the Kylo animatronic being in B-Mode are enough to affect my day. I have plenty of issues with both parks (especially after working in both), but maintenance doesn't crack the Top 5 of either resort for me personally.

 

[belloq87]

I think a lot of you upset about the issues are equating explaining to defending. Almost a "shooting the messenger" situation.

I hear everything you said. Re: this specific point, it's not my intent to imply anybody is defending anything.

I understand why these instances are challenging fixes. But I still think that a company charging what it charges (and spending HUGE sums of money on a new theme park... implying they have plenty of money to spend) could fix these things in a more expeditious manner.

 

[Brian G.]

I hear everything you said. Re: this specific point, it's not my intent to imply anybody is defending anything.

I understand why these instances are challenging fixes. But I still think that a company charging what it charges (and spending HUGE sums of money on a new theme park... implying they have plenty of money to spend) could fix these things in a more expeditious manner.

The only thing I can think of for JPRA was that it just closed earlier in the year and they didn't want to close it for a lengthy downtime again.

 

[IzzyB]

Those same people would also like to see rides in great working condition. No broken (or completely missing) animatronics on rides, guns that actually work on MIB, etc.

Agreed, my friend went to Uni and is not a theme park crazy person like some of us and he pointed out a ton of not working things.

Frankly hurricanes it a poor excuse, many of these rides were not working long before that and if a ride should be prioritized it should be Kong since it is missing an entire part of the ride.

I am super happy they a doing refurbs, but it is a little late. This should have been done before Covid. Dinos were broke last time I went and I haven't been there in a REALLY long time.

I will also say most who complain about the entertainment it is because there is no replacement in site for what no longer exists. I think everyone should be patient with the night time show, that clearly was not their fault. But it is magnified with all the planned entertainment closures.

 

[Brian G.]

Agreed, my friend went to Uni and is not a theme park crazy person like some of us and he pointed out a ton of not working things.

Frankly hurricanes it a poor excuse, many of these rides were not working long before that and if a ride should be prioritized it should be Kong since it is missing an entire part of the ride.

I am super happy they a doing refurbs, but it is a little late. This should have been done before Covid. Dinos were broke last time I went and I haven't been there in a REALLY long time.

I will also say most who complain about the entertainment it is because there is no replacement in site for what no longer exists. I think everyone should be patient with the night time show, that clearly was not their fault. But it is magnified with all the planned entertainment closures.

Just so we're clear - what rides besides JPRA?

And I think to dismiss to hurricane isn't completely fair. It's not that it was the cause of some issues, but it also didn't help. The park was closed for nearly 2 days due to flooding, and it completely wrecked Dudley, left a giant hole in the side of JPRA, and literally forced an early closure of Poseidon's.

 

[IzzyB]

Just so we're clear - what rides besides JPRA?

And I think to dismiss to hurricane isn't completely fair. It's not that it was the cause of some issues, but it also didn't help. The park was closed for nearly 2 days due to flooding, and it completely wrecked Dudley, left a giant hole in the side of JPRA, and literally forced an early closure of Poseidon's.

I would have to ask again what other rides. He was disappointed in his day. Now part of that was long lines in the summer and his son not willing to ride the lower line ones. So half this complaints were not really the parks fault, but other complaints seem to be ride related. But this was in August and I don't remember what I ate yesterday lol

But ET wasn't in the best shape when I did a corporate event last year.

 

[Brian G.]

I would have to ask again what other rides. He was disappointed in his day. Now part of that was long lines in the summer and his son not willing to ride the lower line ones. So half this complaints were not really the parks fault, but other complaints seem to be ride related. But this was in August and I don't remember what I ate yesterday lol

But ET wasn't in the best shape when I did a corporate event last year.

I guess that's another thing - did a one-off issue impact their experience or was it a known, lengthy one?


As far as ET - I think that's just the ride's age. It went through a major refurb in 2017, so that's pretty recent - and it's currently getting the AAs refurbed overnight. It will come to a point where they need to do a major overhaul soon.

 

[Ken96]

Let me just say: I rode Kong 1 minute before park close, with a vehicle all to myself, a few weeks ago. It gave me a whole new appreciation for how good Kong actually is as a total package. Of course no outdoor portion, but I was so excited to see all 3 bat animatronics working. I had never seen the ride with EVERYTHING working. Hopefully they fix whatever the outdoor issue is!

 

[belloq87]

I mean in one thread we're complaining they took away entertainment due to the storm, but here we're mad they're not closing a ride due to the storm...

I'm not sure what this is referencing, specifically, but as I said earlier, there's a distinction between closing attractions/leaving space intentionally vacant, and closing for repair/refurbishment.

Universal is a business and cannot think like a fan. Yes, it does suck that a scene is missing or needs fixing - but for every Belloq, there's a JungleSkip - and if the ride (in Kong's case) is 90% operational, they're going to keep it open. Put it this way, McDonald's ain't gonna close down shop if the ice cream machine is broken, but if the grill is broken... that's a different story.

But to continue this analogy, how long is too long for the ice cream machine to remain broken?

I understand things happen. And if all these issues are really being worked on behind-the-scenes as others are saying, well, that's better than that not happening.

I'm not going to convince anybody that my irritation is the correct response to any of this, nor am I particularly trying to, so I'll just say I hope we get some good news about these issues sooner than later, and leave it at that for now.

 

[Brian G.]

I'm not sure what this is referencing, specifically, but as I said earlier, there's a distinction between closing attractions/leaving space intentionally vacant, and closing for repair/refurbishment.

There was some chatter in other threads about entertainment being cut with recent closures with no replacement as a systemic issue - especially the lagoon show and Potter nighttime show but Universal is actively working on replacements. So the point is it seems there's a bit of goalpost moving here. A good example was when Mummy was closed and the estimated length of the closure was 8 months, and there were some complaints that it was taking longer than expected - and then when they opened due to demand, the same people complaining about the delay in the opening complained about the ride not being 100%...

I'm not saying this is a specific issue for you, but just merely pointing out the discussions that do occur.

As far as vacant space - the only show in recent years that was outright cut was Poseidon, and as stated in other threads - a low-attended, low GSAT show that was damaged by the Hurricane wasn't long for this world. It's an understandable closure.

I 100% agree that closing Sindbad without a plan isn't great.

But to continue this analogy, how long is too long for the ice cream machine to remain broken?

Well, in the case of my local McDonald's... forever. LOL But I still go there...

I understand things happen. And if all these issues are really being worked on behind-the-scenes as others are saying, well, that's better than that not happening.

I'm not going to convince anybody that my irritation is the correct response to any of this, nor am I particularly trying to, so I'll just say I hope we get some good news about these issues sooner than later, and leave it at that for now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't feel that way but just merely offering some perspective.

As stated earlier, specifically TBad and myself, we're just putting the kibosh on certain "cutz" narratives.

To a much larger point in the thread's discussion from others on how UO don't address the attractions.... not counting any new ride open in the last 5 years-

IOA

• Spidey - 2012 overhaul
• Hulk - 2016 retrack
• Dr. Doom - 2021 retrack
• Dudley - yearly maintenance
• Popeye - yearly maintenance
• Me Ship - biannual maintenance
• Kong - ongoing outdoor portion issues
• JPRA - yearly maintenance - current issues with key scenes but going through a nightly refurb
• Camp Jurassic - 2021 refurb
• Potter - FJ goes through nightly touchups, with occasional day closures throughout the year
• Hogwarts Express - several weekly closures in the last few years
• PF - Hurricane damage caused earlier demise
• Cat in the Hat - 2011 refurb
• High in the Sky - 2013 refurb
• Caro-Seuss-El - 2022 refurb
• If I Ran the Zoo - 2022 refurb
• One Fish - 2022 refurb

USF

• Minion Mayhem - 2016 & 2019 (3D removal) refurb
• Jimmy Fallon - none
• Mummy - 2022 refurb
• Transformers - none
• Supercharged - 2020 refurb (kinda sorta)
• Gringotts - goes through nightly touchups, with occasional day closures throughout the year
• MIB - current nightly refurb
• Simpsons - 2017 refurb
• Kang & Kodos - occasional weekly closures
• ET - 2017 refurb and current nightly refurb
• Rockit - Has had weekly closures occasionally over the last 2 years.

Out of all those listed, we can agree Cat in the Hat and Simpsons are probably overdue in addition but MIB, JP, and ET are currently being worked on, with Kong likely (and quietly) next before they get to the yearly refurb of the other water rides - and this is just the stuff that we know.

From what I see, that's a decent track record. Each attraction is going to be different, and we can discuss how JP losing key scenes for a while is a rough look - but I just can't see an "outright" issue as a whole.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Boiling things down to the most basic level, a day guest at IOA right now will find walls up covering significant portions of most lands, one land almost completely shuttered with no visible construction started, JP and Kong missing large portions of their effects, Cat in relatively rough shape, almost no entertainment, three huge entertainment venues sitting empty, the entrance to Seuss Landing broken... Exacerbating all this, Universal just dramatically raised ticket prices.

Now, folks on this board know a lot of the explanations. Hurricanes, planned expansions that may or may not happen, regular maintenance, other assorted disasters, new theme park coming on line, and that's all interesting and informative... but at a very real level none of it matters very much. Universal is one of the world's premiere vacation destinations and its trying to compete with the biggest fish in that pond (I'm certainly rooting for it). It's not supposed to be McDonald's, it's supposed to be Ruth's Chris. It's charging like it is. All the valid explanations in the world don't outweigh the experience it is actually offering and has been offering for a year or more. If that experience is underwhelming, if too many things are missing or broken, Universal has fouled up. It really can be that simple.

Oh, and as for Kong being worked on, the employees working on the ride certainly don't seem to think that's the case. They may be entirely wrong (don't trust a bus drivers rumors and all that) but whatever's happening isn't apparent to them. They're asking guests to complain so they can get some of the maintenance budget they've been told doesn't cover fixing the outdoor portion.

 

[Brian G.]

Boiling things down to the most basic level, a day guest at IOA right now will find walls up covering significant portions of most lands, one land almost completely shuttered with no visible construction started, JP and Kong missing large portions of their effects, Cat in relatively rough shape, almost no entertainment, three huge entertainment venues sitting empty, the entrance to Seuss Landing broken... Exacerbating all this, Universal just dramatically raised ticket prices.

Now, folks on this board know a lot of the explanations. Hurricanes, planned expansions that may or may not happen, regular maintenance, other assorted disasters, new theme park coming on line, and that's all interesting and informative... but at a very real level none of it matters very much. Universal is one of the world's premiere vacation destinations and its trying to compete with the biggest fish in that pond (I'm certainly rooting for it). It's not supposed to be McDonald's, it's supposed to be Ruth's Chris. It's charging like it is. All the valid explanations in the world don't outweigh the experience it is actually offering and has been offering for a year or more. If that experience is underwhelming, if too many things are missing or broken, Universal has fouled up. It really can be that simple.

Oh, and as for Kong being worked on, the employees working on the ride certainly don't seem to think that's the case. They may be entirely wrong (don't trust a bus drivers rumors and all that) but whatever's happening isn't apparent to them. They're asking guests to complain so they can get some of the maintenance budget they've been told doesn't cover fixing the outdoor portion.

Ok fine. If Ruth’s Chris is out of cheesecake they don’t shut down the restaurant. LOL.

 

[Cup_Of_Coffee]

Weather, budgets, all that aside. A ton of efforts are simply at Epic Universe right now. A lot of that in 2025 can be diverted elsewhere. 2026 can help a lot for some maintenance around the current 2 parks while they adjust to operating EU. Then when Zelda opens in 2027 ish, they should have a better overall grip on things.

Parks are always changing though.

 

[Mad Dog]

Boiling things down to the most basic level, a day guest at IOA right now will find walls up covering significant portions of most lands, one land almost completely shuttered with no visible construction started, JP and Kong missing large portions of their effects, Cat in relatively rough shape, almost no entertainment, three huge entertainment venues sitting empty, the entrance to Seuss Landing broken... Exacerbating all this, Universal just dramatically raised ticket prices.

Now, folks on this board know a lot of the explanations. Hurricanes, planned expansions that may or may not happen, regular maintenance, other assorted disasters, new theme park coming on line, and that's all interesting and informative... but at a very real level none of it matters very much. Universal is one of the world's premiere vacation destinations and its trying to compete with the biggest fish in that pond (I'm certainly rooting for it). It's not supposed to be McDonald's, it's supposed to be Ruth's Chris. It's charging like it is. All the valid explanations in the world don't outweigh the experience it is actually offering and has been offering for a year or more. If that experience is underwhelming, if too many things are missing or broken, Universal has fouled up. It really can be that simple.

Oh, and as for Kong being worked on, the employees working on the ride certainly don't seem to think that's the case. They may be entirely wrong (don't trust a bus drivers rumors and all that) but whatever's happening isn't apparent to them. They're asking guests to complain so they can get some of the maintenance budget they've been told doesn't cover fixing the outdoor portion.

Kind of my point also. I know they're making a legitimate effort on many issues. I'm familiar with the yearly refurb schedules, and the intense redos of certain attractions. But that's a given, otherwise a park would fall apart. I could have written them all down without even looking them up. But if conditions warrant with certain attractions, it's incumbent upon a good management team to lobby and secure the extra maintenance budget that's needed to bring them back to where their operations should be. There are record profits after all, and higher than inflation price increases also, to pull from. .. Some of the recent and past planning though, is catching up. If they still had the three theaters open that would alleviate some of the issues. At the same time there's the 'pause' between old and new upcoming parade, and the hurricane shutdown shows and next years renewed shows. And operations have been bumpy since covid. TM's do not seem to be trained as well as they were before covid thus affecting operations. The bottom line to a guest is what is meaningful. The 'bottom line' is that a 2023 vacation is not equal to a 2019 vacation, plus the large increases in prices and deluxe hotel costs. Yes, I'm well aware that some of the closures will ultimately be coming back online, I keep saying they're 'temporary'. And I keep saying that late 2024 should be a better experience. But that doesn't help the three 'very disappointing' and 'underwhelming' vacations that I had in 2021 and 2022 that probably would have been repeated if I was foolish enough to go in 2023. I'm not overly pessimistic about Universal. I'm actually tentatively planning on scheduling a vacation in late 2024 when I'm anticipating they'll have their game together by then. Hurricane factored in, but I don't think their planning timeline worked very well since covid. And when I had the two long vacations at WDW, they seemed to have their operations largely back to normal with things running pretty smoothly. So, to me, it seems like a Universal thing, when looking at a weaker vacation experience the last few years. And, as I've said many times. Just about every year since 2010, I've spent two vacations of total 20 to 28 total days onsite at Universal, most of it in the deluxe hotels. I 'absolutely' 'loved' every vacation through the last one in late Jan./early Feb. 2020 right before covid shut the parks down for a few months. And, just look at my past comments, I cheer leaded the unique Universal on site EXPERIENCE. So, it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about, or what I experienced 'before' covid, and what I 'experienced' after covid. And I did give leeway to the summer 2021 vacation since it was only a year since the park closed down. But that excuse didn't hold water for 2022 and what I see has happened in 2023.