Universal Orlando Resort Expansion (Part 1)

[AlexanderMBush]

Yes! If they did buy SeaWorld, gut it leave the coasters and add more and make it Florida's cedar point. They would then officially excel in every demographic. I'm for it!

But it probably won't happen because sesame street is going to be seaworld's potter.

I wouldn't say Sesame being SWPE's Potter, but I do think it's going to make a good amount of Merchandise.

To turn things back, how soon do we think we might see City Council hearing's begin for presumably Project PI (UOSouth)?

 

[devinp267]

I wouldn't say Sesame being SWPE's Potter, but I do think it's going to make a good amount of Merchandise.

To turn things back, how soon do we think we might see City Council hearing's begin for presumably Project PI (UOSouth)?

Only kidding lol. I think by the end of this year it will he full steam ahead..

 

[Happytycho]

To turn things back, how soon do we think we might see City Council hearing's begin for presumably Project PI (UOSouth)?

Never.

It's not located in any city.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

Never.

It's not located in any city.

Huh, I would've thought that they needed clearance to do it, considering it's right next to Lockheed Martin.

 

[Ridgepole]

Tink the meaning was not a city council gig. More like county but I'm not a refugee living there.

 

[WAJAS]

Never.

It's not located in any city.

True, but the county government will require them to go through a very similar process. They’d also need to work with the city for any transportation link between the properties because the city limits start just north of the south property.

 

[Ridgepole]

Maybe if they get Tolkien, you enter a Moria ride and exit into the second park? Just a thought. My application to Uni creative has been submitted

 

[Andysol]

If they got a fire sale good deal for SW, I could see it. Keep aquatica and discovery cove. Raze SWO, sell off its parts, and build hotels in its place.

 

[Magic-Man]

If they got a fire sale good deal for SW, I could see it. Keep aquatica and discovery cove. Raze SWO, sell off its parts, and build hotels in its place.

As long as BGT gets Manta and Mako, I'm completely fine with that.

 

[Mr. EPCOT]

We know that universal filed plans for building warehouses on the northern part of the new property back in February, but they have made seemingly no effort towards getting those plans approved in the time since.

This got me thinking - what if they decided to go a different direction in laying out the southern property? From a transportation/logistical standpoint, it could make a lot of sense to build parking garages on that northern area where the warehouses were planned. Doing so would allow for a direct flow of traffic into the resort and garages from Sand Lake Rd and Kirkman Rd, which would likely be more efficient than any of the other options. Laying out the south site this way would also allow them to make more of the land that directly borders the treatment plant backstage areas rather than guest accessible areas. The major downside is that if Citywalk 2.0 is then also placed towards the north end, it will be a significant distance from at least some of the parks and/or hotels. Or they could make Citywalk 2.0 more centrally located and just have a really really long moving walkway to get there from the parking garages.

This is not a likely outcome, nor do we have any real reason to believe it will happen, but I am curious what everyone thinks of this idea.

Wouldn't a main entrance on Universal Blvd lead to terrible traffic? I agree with the above poster that Kirkman / Sand Lake will be a much, much better place to funnel most vehicular traffic. It doesn't make sense to me to have the entrance on "Universal Blvd" just because it's iconic, though I'm sure there will be an entrance there.

Traffic throughout the Sand Lake/International Drive/Kirkman area is TERRIBLE, mostly two-lane roads everywhere often packed to the gills, you don't want to be funneling additional theme park-sized traffic through there. Universal Blvd. is three lanes in both directions south of Pointe Orlando, and you have a nearly immediate exit from the 528.

 

[Ridgepole]

Traffic throughout the Sand Lake/International Drive/Kirkman area is TERRIBLE, mostly two-lane roads everywhere often packed to the gills, you don't want to be funneling additional theme park-sized traffic through there. Universal Blvd. is three lanes in both directions south of Pointe Orlando, and you have a nearly immediate exit from the 528.

Whenever I have gone from MCO to UOR the road construction has been hot and heavy. I see this happening nearly forever. It's growth and won't stop. They will just keep building the roads. I guess it becomes a question of who pays for what on UNI blvd, kirkman and sandlake.

 

[youhow2]

The problem is that there isn't really an easy way to "upgrade" SWO to the level of a UOR/WDW park without completely demolishing and rebuilding it..., at that point why not wait until if/when Lockheed decides to leave and get their 340 acres of land that's even easier to integrate into the south resort?

There isn't really another operator that could buy SWO and upgrade it to the level of UOR/WDW. There's no other operator with those kinds of deep pockets or IPs (not Merlin, Six Flags, Cedar Fair, etc.).

And as far as IPs go, I can't see Nintendo or JK Rowling or LOTR wanting to be involved with the current SW brand (hounded as it is by PETA at the moment).

If Blackfish hadn't happened, then maybe there'd be a chance of that kind of scenario as you discuss, but in the context of Blackfish as well as Universal already having enough land to build 2 new dry parks, I don't see how SWO enters their thinking.

Your argument speaks to the importance of Universal securing LOTR from the Tolkien Estate more than it does them trying to buy SWO.


I think they'll wait out Lockheed as long as they can; it'd probably require Lockheed saying "we're not leaving this spot in Orlando for another 50 years" for me to think they'd even consider SWO.

Just to be clear, I'm saying I'd assume a deal where Comcast buys SWO includes stipulation that animals are safely relocated and the park is shut down for the time being. I mean, I'd think that goes without saying. The land is the important part, the Animal shows are done, essentially. I don't think Comcast would buy SWO to operate SWO and that's not what I'm talking about.


I don't think it's even logical to assume anyone is arguing Comcast is going to try and buy SWO and fix it, Run animal shows etc. IMO, It's brand is beyond fixing and that's what going to break it. But the park has infrastructure in place. It has rides that are viable. And it is also the only other major park in Orlando. If I were Comcast, That has value.

Your argument speaks to the importance of Universal securing LOTR from the Tolkien Estate more than it does them trying to buy SWO.

No, Acquiring more land to create complete control over your offerings in a city is a completely different thing to usage rights for IP, which is created all the time. Also, if you think the Tolkien Estate is going to let Disney have LOTR you're crazy. They might be considering loosening up, but if i'm not mistaken he hated Disney, and their model of operation doesn't really support a more mature offering I would think they have to offer to pull the property off.

 

[Happytycho]

Just to be clear, I'm saying I'd assume a deal where Comcast buys SWO includes stipulation that animals are safely relocated and the park is shut down for the time being. I mean, I'd think that goes without saying. The land is the important part, the Animal shows are done, essentially. I don't think Comcast would buy SWO to operate SWO and that's not what I'm talking about.


I don't think it's even logical to assume anyone is arguing Comcast is going to try and buy SWO and fix it, Run animal shows etc. IMO, It's brand is beyond fixing and that's what going to break it. But the park has infrastructure in place. It has rides that are viable. And it is also the only other major park in Orlando. If I were Comcast, That has value.

I'll argue for Comcast buying SWO and keeping most of the animal shows, but not "operating SWO."

It's unrealistic to see a purchase happening until after the south site is developed, and at that point Universal will have no reason to make another park just like the others. When you already have four parks filled primarily with moderate thrill rides, building a fifth park of primarily moderate thrill rides will do nothing but cannibalize the other parks, which is pretty much the problem that Disney has run into with their parks.

Assuming that Comcast doesn't want to buy the whole SeaWorld chain, SWO will have to have the SeaWorld branding removed after purchase. At the same time, the orca whales will have to go, or there is no chance that the park will be able to overcome their negative perception. But if that does happen, I don't see any reason why the remaining animal shows couldn't stay and have the park re-branded as something like "Universal's Animal World" which gets away from most of the reputation and perception issues that SeaWorld currently has.

Certainly the park would need other improvements as well - getting a couple of Universal quality attractions to replace some of SWO's current screen based rides would be a remarkable improvement. But it is not true that the entire park would need to gutted. At it's core, the park would remain focused around animal shows and roller coasters, just as it is now.

Add a couple of value hotels in the area, and I believe that you will have created a new resort area with a good chance of persuading some current UOR guests to add a vacation day for a different experience than UOR currently offers, as well as attracting much of the current SWO demographic and those who want simpler/cheaper/shorter Orlando vacations.

 

[nickwilde]

I see this happening nearly forever. It's growth and won't stop. They will just keep building the roads.

Eventually it will stop when you get to LA levels of development and run out of land to put lanes and don’t have even a glimmer of a serviceable transpiration alternative.

Interesting that the project is outside city limits. I wonder if that will make it easier to get a transportation link approved, but harder to pull in outside funding or connect to a wider network? Seems like the ideal would connect to the convention center, but no other non universal properties? Or maybe it’s not even worth a direct connection.. I wonder how much attendance would be driven by a non-bus transportation link to the convention center. A few thousand per day, max, when there’s a big convention in town?

I wonder if they are watching the skyliner to see how it holds up in Florida weather. That’s probably the ideal setup from a capacity and budget perspective.

 

[Mike S]

If they got a fire sale good deal for SW, I could see it. Keep aquatica and discovery cove. Raze SWO, sell off its parts, and build hotels in its place.

Hotels?

Booooorrrrrrrrriiiiiiiing :yawn:

 

[quinnmac000]

Yea wasn't their talk of Disney wanting Discovery Cove? Just because Seaworld Parks and Resort is failing that land is useful to Universal. Remember they already had issues for selling land because they didn't think they would need it before and then when they wanted it they had to pay more for it.

 

[GAcoaster]

Yea wasn't their talk of Disney wanting Discovery Cove?

Disney made an offer on Discovery Cove when InBev went to sell the parks off.

Just because Seaworld Parks and Resort is failing that land is useful to Universal. Remember they already had issues for selling land because they didn't think they would need it before and then when they wanted it they had to pay more for it.

That land was sold as a necessity at the time to keep the company afloat. Things have changed A LOT since then. They always thought they needed and wanted that land they sold off, but keeping things open and running became a priority over future expansion. If the park had closed, there would be no future to expand in.



I wouldn't be surprised to see the City of Orlando move to incorporate the new park site. That way they would collect the tax revenue on it and it would help Universal streamline some of the processes. The City limits are right there at Sand Lake Road and the line is very arbitrary, cutting out Tangelo Park on one side and encompassing the airport on the other.

One of the things mentioned at one point by the City/County/Universal was the idea of Kirkman Road being the main corridor connecting the two park areas and not Universal Boulevard. If that is the case, Kirkman is all in the City only entering Orange County jurisdiction at Sand Lake which is also the edge of the property.

 

[zg44]

Just to be clear, I'm saying I'd assume a deal where Comcast buys SWO includes stipulation that animals are safely relocated and the park is shut down for the time being. I mean, I'd think that goes without saying. The land is the important part, the Animal shows are done, essentially. I don't think Comcast would buy SWO to operate SWO and that's not what I'm talking about.


I don't think it's even logical to assume anyone is arguing Comcast is going to try and buy SWO and fix it, Run animal shows etc. IMO, It's brand is beyond fixing and that's what going to break it. But the park has infrastructure in place. It has rides that are viable. And it is also the only other major park in Orlando. If I were Comcast, That has value.







No, Acquiring more land to create complete control over your offerings in a city is a completely different thing to usage rights for IP, which is created all the time. Also, if you think the Tolkien Estate is going to let Disney have LOTR you're crazy. They might be considering loosening up, but if i'm not mistaken he hated Disney, and their model of operation doesn't really support a more mature offering I would think they have to offer to pull the property off.

Yea wasn't their talk of Disney wanting Discovery Cove? Just because Seaworld Parks and Resort is failing that land is useful to Universal. Remember they already had issues for selling land because they didn't think they would need it before and then when they wanted it they had to pay more for it.

That's fair, but I don't think Universal is as interested anymore in going that far south because 1) they passed up some of the parcels around the Destination Parkway extension, and 2) they gave Stan Thomas a ROFR to buy back some of those parcels (the ones with the new parking lots) if they decide to sell them in the future.

I would think if Universal thought SWO was in their plans, they'd have bought that extra land for hotels instead of letting others get them:

Those parcels in black were for sale in the past year and Universal passed. Universal also let Stan Thomas keep those red parcels.

Universal is putting parking lots on those blue parcels, but may sell them later...

I'd think if SWO was in Universal's plans that they'd have wanted to consolidate all of those parcels for hotel rooms.

 

[SeventyOne]

I don't think it's even logical to assume anyone is arguing Comcast is going to try and buy SWO and fix it, Run animal shows etc. IMO, It's brand is beyond fixing and that's what going to break it. But the park has infrastructure in place. It has rides that are viable. And it is also the only other major park in Orlando. If I were Comcast, That has value.

I agree the animal shows are on the way out, no matter what.

That said, the park has very little useful infrastructure. It has three solid coasters (it's other E-tickets are garbage too reliant on the current theme). And it has zoning as a theme park. Everything else was built for middle school field trips (back when the park was owned by schoolbook publisher Harcourt). The restaurants are all cafeteria style. The seating is all bleacher-style benches. The bathrooms are so small two grown men at the urinals can't help but tap toes. You would basically need to do a top to bottom rebuild but for the coasters and the parking lot--and even in the lot, as the area explodes, you'll need a better exit to I-4 then against traffic onto Sea Harbor.

As for being the only other major park in Orlando, at best average trip in the 2020s will involve 4 park days. MK, Star Wars Land and Super Mario Land claim three of those. You're going to see a death match between EPCOT, DAK and Dueling Potter Parks for that remaining day. Makes more sense to shore up USO and IOA than basically start from scratch to make SWO a contender in that fight.

If they got a fire sale good deal for SW, I could see it. Keep aquatica and discovery cove. Raze SWO, sell off its parts, and build hotels in its place.

Agree except I think it will be high end apartments/condos or even McMansions, not hotels.

 

[Doug A.]

Speaking hypothetically because Lockheed may never decide to move. Do you think Uni will design the south property in a way that could seamlessly integrate the Lockheed property if they were to acquire it?