WGA & SAG Strike of 2023

[belloq87]

Again, I didn't say the WGA shouldn't be striking.

I just hope people are clear-eyed about -- and sympathetic to -- the possible knock-on effects on folks who aren't directly represented in the two negotiating parties involved in this strike. I don't personally know any WGA members (as far as I know!) or entertainment executives, but I do know theater owners and theater employees, and I hope they're not truly struggling again in 18 months. That's all. I'm not assigning blame, it will be what it will be.

 

[rageofthegods]

Reading between the lines, I don't think they have a choice. Wall Street is forcing their hand to play hardball. They're going to have to sustain considerable damage before they can reverse course and make meaningful concessions, which is why I'm convinced this strike is going to be on the longer side.

I get that, but on the other hand I truly think the AMPTP is overplaying their hand here. It's not just the writers anymore, the world created by Netflix's Uber driver labor mentality hasn't been working for anyone. It's gotten so bad that even the producers are complaining about not getting paid.

Wall Street can grumble but they can hardly complain when they were the ones that got duped by a bunch of silicon valley fabulists. And I can only hope that Ted and Co. Get a little less smug when they realize, as the networks did in '07, that they can't replace the writers of the most prolific and globally relevant entertainment industries in the world with a bunch of low-rent reality shows and that only 3% or so of international acquisitions actually breakout outside of their home countries.

 

[PerceptiveCoot]

Again, I didn't say the WGA shouldn't be striking.

I just hope people are clear-eyed about -- and sympathetic to -- the possible knock-on effects on folks who aren't directly represented in the two negotiating parties involved in this strike. I don't personally know any WGA members (as far as I know!) or entertainment executives, but I do know theater owners and theater employees, and I hope they're not truly struggling again in 18 months. That's all. I'm not assigning blame, it will be what it will be.

The point of any strike is that the knock-on effects of not coming to a deal are so damaging to multiple parties that demands have to be met. The writers striking are likely clear-eyed about this not just because they work with people in the industry but because it's a direct component of their negotiating strategy.

 

[fryoj]

I wonder how long till they get AI trained up to write shows and movies, cause that is coming.

 

[Clive]

I wonder how long till they get AI trained up to write shows and movies, cause that is coming.

Not if the WGA gets its way - and I have plenty of reason to believe they will not budge on this point.

As it stands, AI is not capable of creating shows or movies, and it is unlikely to be able to do so for the foreseeable future. (Source: I work with AI tools that are more sophisticated than ChatGPT constantly at my job. The technology is just not there, and it fundamentally is not built in such a way to create compelling original material.)

 

[Jerroddragon]

Not if the WGA gets its way - and I have plenty of reason to believe they will not budge on this point.

As it stands, AI is not capable of creating shows or movies, and it is unlikely to be able to do so for the foreseeable future. (Source: I work with AI tools that are more sophisticated than ChatGPT constantly at my job. The technology is just not there, and it fundamentally is not built in such a way to create compelling original material.)

Are they asking for a contract saying you can't use AI and if so is there any end date or just plain out you can't use AI?

I know today it can't be used but even a year ago AI could not create music and do as much as now.....so in ten years its up in the air on how good an AI could be used in the writing room.

 

[Clive]

Are they asking for a contract saying you can't use AI and if so is there any end date or just plain out you can't use AI?

I know today it can't be used but even a year ago AI could not create music and do as much as now.....so in ten years its up in the air on how good an AI could be used in the writing room.

From the WGA's summary proposal, verbatim:
"Regulate use of artificial intelligence on MBA-covered projects. AI can't write or rewrite literary material; can't be used as a source material; and MBA-covered material can't be used to train AI."

In my opinion, in the short-term (i.e. the next five years), AI tools -- barring a ground-up transformation of how they are built and made to function -- will only be capable of partially replacing writers of Hallmark-style films and animated kids content, as these types of stories are extremely formulaic with little no need for differentiation over time. Even in these cases, though, the AI will likely generate foundations of scripts that an (underpaid, non-union) writer will be expected to fix and punch up. These types of projects are already not covered under the WGA MBA, so I think that sort of shift is coming regardless of the outcome of this strike.

 

[Jerroddragon]

From the WGA's summary proposal, verbatim:
"Regulate use of artificial intelligence on MBA-covered projects. AI can't write or rewrite literary material; can't be used as a source material; and MBA-covered material can't be used to train AI."

In my opinion, in the short-term (i.e. the next five years), AI tools -- barring a ground-up transformation of how they are built and made to function -- will only be capable of partially replacing writers of Hallmark-style films and animated kids content, as these types of stories are extremely formulaic with little no need for differentiation over time. Even in these cases, though, the AI will likely generate foundations of scripts that an (underpaid, non-union) writer will be expected to fix and punch up. These types of projects are already not covered under the WGA MBA, so I think that sort of shift is coming regardless of the outcome of this strike.

While I support writers, I think it's going to be hard to get companies to say they will NEVER use AI for what you listed

Could be wrong but putting a year end date is fine but FOREVER? Yeah, I can't see companies just giving up AI as a tool forever

 

[rageofthegods]

While I support writers, I think it's going to be hard to get companies to say they will NEVER use AI for what you listed

Could be wrong but putting a year end date is fine but FOREVER? Yeah, I can't see companies just giving up AI as a tool forever

I doubt anyone thinks that a ban would be permanent but banning it now let's you set the rules for lifting it later, which gives you leverage in negotiating things like how the technology gets used and (importantly) how compensation works in an AI-written scenario.

If you don't ban it now, then you give the studios the chance to set the rules, which as we've learned is power they should absolutely not be trusted with.

 

[Casper Gutman]

While I support writers, I think it's going to be hard to get companies to say they will NEVER use AI for what you listed

Could be wrong but putting a year end date is fine but FOREVER? Yeah, I can't see companies just giving up AI as a tool forever

AI should never be widely used - or used at all - to create art, popular or otherwise, be it video games, movies, music, comics, etc. Its so absurd to have to say this. At any previous point in human existence the idea of wealthy executives replacing human creativity with AI would have been considered so cartoonishly evil as to stretch the willing suspension of disbelief. It's on-the-nose dystopia stuff, the broadest satire of capitalism imaginable. Yet here we all are, stroking our chins and debating just how much of the human soul we should replace with computers.

The ONLY thing that makes art worthwhile is that it is produced by humans. This absolutely also goes for oft-derided pop art forms - comics, video games, etc, AI art is utterly, absolutely worthless.

 

[graspthesun]

The WGA website has 3 year thresholds on new gains from their bargaining agreements, so I believe their contracts run either 3 years or some portions are up for adjustment every 3 years. I think there is some room for movement on the WGA side, but AMPTP needs to come at least 80% of the way there from where they are now.

Personally, I think a 13-week minimum is unrealistic. That's a threshold set by the early limited series craze when shows settled into 13 episode seasons. I think 8-10 weeks is probably more realistic. I also don't think the WGA should move at all on AI.

The ripple effect is real though. I have friends who work in production and accounting that haven't been able to get gigs because production work in Louisiana was down about 90% from the same time last year. Disney in particular put a lot of projects on hold because they expected a strike months ago. I think that's also an indicator that this will stretch on for a while.

 

[Nico]

AI should never be widely used - or used at all - to create art, popular or otherwise, be it video games, movies, music, comics, etc. Its so absurd to have to say this. At any previous point in human existence the idea of wealthy executives replacing human creativity with AI would have been considered so cartoonishly evil as to stretch the willing suspension of disbelief. It's on-the-nose dystopia stuff, the broadest satire of capitalism imaginable. Yet here we all are, stroking our chins and debating just how much of the human soul we should replace with computers.

The ONLY thing that makes art worthwhile is that it is produced by humans. This absolutely also goes for oft-derided pop art forms - comics, video games, etc, AI art is utterly, absolutely worthless.

This 100%. I do not want to live in a world where art is made by robots. It’s the anthesis of art. The fed is meeting with tech (I believe this week) to insist on self-regulation. We’re gonna see this discourse in every sector.

Also, supporting Unions is critical in this discussion. I love TV, but I love people affording to live more.

 

[Jerroddragon]

AI should never be widely used - or used at all - to create art, popular or otherwise, be it video games, movies, music, comics, etc. Its so absurd to have to say this. At any previous point in human existence the idea of wealthy executives replacing human creativity with AI would have been considered so cartoonishly evil as to stretch the willing suspension of disbelief. It's on-the-nose dystopia stuff, the broadest satire of capitalism imaginable. Yet here we all are, stroking our chins and debating just how much of the human soul we should replace with computers.

The ONLY thing that makes art worthwhile is that it is produced by humans. This absolutely also goes for oft-derided pop art forms - comics, video games, etc, AI art is utterly, absolutely worthless.

Counter point, AI allowed more people to tell stories and makes it cheaper for everyone in the future

Not saying it’s good for writers but people will be making art with AI from now on. I watch a series with all AI voices as well, so it’s going to happen either way.

It’s like Uber drives protesting self driving cars, the tech is hard to just ignore when the rest of the world is using it.

Once again I hope the writers win but the AI point is going to be hard for studios to just ban our right. South Park even used chat GBT last season

 

[Mad Dog]

AI....and we get closer to a 'real life' Terminator attraction.

 

[Jake S]

Counter point, AI allowed more people to tell stories and makes it cheaper for everyone in the future

Not saying it’s good for writers but people will be making art with AI from now on. I watch a series with all AI voices as well, so it’s going to happen either way.

will it? and if so, why? AI in its current form is simply plagiarizing actual written works. you can make an argument for its use as a tool to inspire newly created works (not a great argument! but still) it's not going to create new work any time soon.

It’s like Uber drives protesting self driving cars, the tech is hard to just ignore when the rest of the world is using it.

Once again I hope the writers win but the AI point is going to be hard for studios to just ban our right. South Park even used chat GBT last season

except it isn't. automation has always been a part of the human experience, but that's not what we're talking about here. self-driving cars (which are also many, many years away) might replace taxi drivers in the same way large machines replace factory workers. that's not the same thing as AI's use in art.

 

[Jerroddragon]

will it? and if so, why? AI in its current form is simply plagiarizing actual written works. you can make an argument for its use as a tool to inspire newly created works (not a great argument! but still) it's not going to create new work any time soon.


except it isn't. automation has always been a part of the human experience, but that's not what we're talking about here. self-driving cars (which are also many, many years away) might replace taxi drivers in the same way large machines replace factory workers. that's not the same thing as AI's use in art.

Well except if say Universal owns an AI or is partnered with it, then its not stealing work if the AI is pulling scripts they own

Say they want to make an Office movie and use an AI and find the best ways to put the characters in situations that would be funny, now you'd still have someone most likely writing it out past that but an AI can come up with structure now, in 5-10 years I can't even imagine its storytelling capabilities.

My theory is a studio will partner with an AI and once a good movie or show comes from it, every studio will race to partner with AI because unless the AI companies take cuts from the episode afterwards it would be cheaper to use an AI to write scripts then a person who will take more time and get money on the backend.

It's not a future I'm pushing for because I want writers out of a job but because its how studios work now they want the cheapest and once AI can take a model you drew and can make it do anything then we will still have some animators but way less then in the past as well. AI is a tool and doubt humans will pass up using it when art does have a value in the form of movies/TV.

Just my two cents, could be wrong but with studios treating the writers like crap now, I can't imagine them caring about letting most go ASAP the tech allows them to.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Counter point, AI allowed more people to tell stories and makes it cheaper for everyone in the future

Not saying it’s good for writers but people will be making art with AI from now on. I watch a series with all AI voices as well, so it’s going to happen either way.

It’s like Uber drives protesting self driving cars, the tech is hard to just ignore when the rest of the world is using it.

Once again I hope the writers win but the AI point is going to be hard for studios to just ban our right. South Park even used chat GBT last season

Ignoring your other points for the moment, that South Park episode briefly “used AI” (and the shows usual, very human, writing process) to mock the absurd concept of using AI to make art.

 

[Grabnar]

Talent siding with the writers is a level of class solidarity we should all work towards.

 

[Nick]

Talent siding with the writers is a level of class solidarity we should all work towards.

Similar to when Conan paid his writers for the entirety of the 2+ month strike in 2008.

 

[rageofthegods]

Not reading too much into this just yet but if this does mean they're coordinating demands, the strike might be over a little sooner than we thought.