Future WDW Additions/Expansion

[OrlandoGuy]

Actions speak louder than words and Iger's actions have historically been "WDW is fine".

Weird, there’s been a major land or attraction opening at WDW every year since, what, 2016? Those actions seem to be telling you and I two different things.

 

[Nick]

Weird, there’s been a major land or attraction opening at WDW every year since, what, 2016?

This is true:

2016 - Frozen, New Soarin'
2017 - Pandora, Happily Ever After
2018 - TSL
2019 - SWGE
2020 - MMRR
2021 - Rat, Harmonious, Enchantment
2022 - GotG: Cosmic Rewind
2023 - TRON, Happily Ever After 2.0, Journey Of Water/Epcot Spine Project (supposedly)

The main problem with that all is this cycle of attractions was supposed to all be open by 2021 so GotG and TRON were well behind schedule. I can give Guardians a pass since it was early 2022, but TRON not even making an 18 month 50th celebration for it's official opening is embarrassing. Also, the lack of attention the DAK saw in this development is disgusting. Sure it got Pandora, but at this point that was 6 years ago and the park has lost a ride since then.

There could be one more thing to add to 2023 depending on what happens with RNRC.

 

[OrlandoGuy]

This is true:

2016 - Frozen, New Soarin'
2017 - Pandora, Happily Ever After
2018 - TSL
2019 - SWGE
2020 - MMRR
2021 - Rat, Harmonious, Enchantment
2022 - GotG: Cosmic Rewind
2023 - TRON, Happily Ever After 2.0, Journey Of Water (supposedly)

The main problem with that all is this cycle of attractions was supposed to all be open by 2021 so GotG and TRON were well behind schedule. I can give Guardians a pass since it was early 2022, but TRON not even making an 18 month 50th celebration for it's official opening is embarrassing.

That’s all well and good but it doesn’t change the fact that the “Disney is complacent and never invests in the parks” narrative is fanboy nonsense. It’s still 14 additions in 8 years (and none on the level of Fast & Furious or a moving walkway attraction).

 

[Nick]

That’s all well and good but it doesn’t change the fact that the “Disney is complacent and never invests in the parks” narrative is fanboy nonsense. It’s still 14 additions in 8 years (and none on the level of Fast & Furious or a moving walkway attraction).

I don't personally agree with the narrative, I just think they've neglected DAK and they've oddly (despite pouring $1B in it) not put enough money into DHS. You can take up you issues about the narrative with others.

 

[OrlandoGuy]

I don't personally agree with the narrative, I just think they've neglected DAK and they've oddly (despite pouring $1B in it) not put enough money into DHS. You can take up you issues about the narrative with others.

I wasn’t directing that toward you or any one specific person… it seems like it’s the entirety of local Orlando on the internet has convinced themselves of it, meanwhile my perspective having moved away for a few years and coming back is that Disney World is like a whole new place compared to 10 years ago.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

WDW never expanded the parks the way they should have as attendance increased.

 

[Jamesh22]

Perhaps related to the majority of those major additions since 2016 having been replacements of other attractions rather than wholy new additions which expand capacity or park footprint? (Exceptions in there I know)

No skin in the game here as Disneyland Resort is my park, just thinking about it as @OrlandoGuy raises a valid point.

 

[OrlandoGuy]

WDW never expanded the parks the way they should have as attendance increased.

Chicken vs. egg situation IMO. You could also spin it as attendance spikes were a direct result of super successful investments in the parks. Not even Disney would have the data to confirm where the causation is.

Perhaps related to the majority of those major additions since 2016 having been replacements of other attractions rather than wholy new additions which expand capacity or park footprint? (Exceptions in there I know)

No skin in the game here as Disneyland Resort is my park, just thinking about it as @OrlandoGuy raises a valid point.

True, but a replacement of something that doesn’t draw attendance (Energy, Maelstrom, etc.) is, for all intents and purposes, an addition. It would be BETTER if we still had those old rides around (especially Great Movie Ride, which I liked way more than what replaced it), but it’s not like leaving rides that were sucking up, at best, 15-minutes’ worth of queue at a time, would’ve really moved the needle THAT much.

 

[Nick]

Perhaps related to the majority of those major additions since 2016 having been replacements of other attractions rather than wholy new additions which expand capacity or park footprint? (Exceptions in there I know)

No skin in the game here as Disneyland Resort is my park, just thinking about it as @OrlandoGuy raises a valid point.

TRON, Rat, and TSL were expansions using former backstage areas. You can then look at something like Pandora which replaced virtually nothing since The Lion King show was the only thing in Camp Minnie Mickey and it moved locations. So for all intents and purposes, that was an expansion as well. Then things like GotG and MMRR which replaced older rides that either saw abnormally low ridership (UoE with it's half empty cars every ride) or fairly low ridership on GMR. And of course Frozen, which replaced Maelstrom, which would get probably a 20 minute wait on a good day.

I'm not here to defend Disney, but when you look at it all in totality, they have clearly added things with an attempt to increase capacity or capacity that will actually be used. UoE had incredibly high capacity but insanely low ridership. Sometimes it's better to have average capacity like GOTG does and high demand than high capacity and no demand.

 

[Jamesh22]

True, but a replacement of something that doesn’t draw attendance (Energy, Maelstrom, etc.) is, for all intents and purposes, an addition. It would be BETTER if we still had those old rides around (especially Great Movie Ride, which I liked way more than what replaced it), but it’s not like leaving rides that were sucking up, at best, 15-minutes’ worth of queue at a time, would’ve really moved the needle THAT much.

Yeah that makes sense.
Perhaps then it's the speed between announcement and opening of rides/attractions that is feeding the narrative? Disney moves at a glacial speed even when moving quickly, but in Orlando the improvements are spread across 4 parks rather than 1 or 2 meaning some parks feel like they are not getting enough investment?

Either way DAK & DHS seem like half day parks to me, in the same way that USH is a half day park unless super crowded.

 

[OrlandoGuy]

Yeah that makes sense.
Perhaps then it's the speed between announcement and opening of rides/attractions that is feeding the narrative? Disney moves at a glacial speed even when moving quickly, but in Orlando the improvements are spread across 4 parks rather than 1 or 2 meaning some parks feel like they are not getting enough investment?

Could be, which adds more credence to the thought that me stepping away and coming back is what separates me from the Twitter brigade. It’s a different perspective divorced from the people who have constantly been clued in with rumors that have time to change, fall through, etc.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

Chicken vs. egg situation IMO. You could also spin it as attendance spikes were a direct result of super successful investments in the parks. Not even Disney would have the data to confirm where the causation is.

Throughout the 2000s and early 2010s they were lucky enough to have attendance increase without much expansion. MK got nothing, Epcot was essentially abandoned except for Soarin', DHS got Lights, Motors and DAK got Everest. They focused their energy on guest spending initiatives and got caught when they realized people wanted new things.

A lot of what they added recently is great, but a lot of it has fallen flat as well.

 

[Jamesh22]

Could be, which adds more credence to the thought that me stepping away and coming back is what separates me from the Twitter brigade. It’s a different perspective divorced from the people who have constantly been clued in with rumors that have time to change, fall through, etc.

Anything that separates you from Twitter is probably a good thing.

 

[fryoj]

“very, very bullish on the theme parks” is a phrase Iger used recently and he also said he saw value in expansion due to the "extraordinary" demand for a Disney vacation. I'm not going to take him at his word since he was talking to Wall Street on an earnings call so it was all about trying to get the stock up, but this combined with the proposals for expanding Magic Kingdom could lead to more expansion should that get funding. Of course it would be a crime if MK got TRON, a PatF overlay of Splash AND an expansion of Frontierland before getting anything new in DAK or DHS, but alas, I wouldn't be surprised.

I also disagree with your thesis that increasing capacity decreases the value of Genie+/LL. Disneyland has a ton of rides and a ton of capacity, yet when I was in Anaheim last year, I didn't feel like I needed Genie+ in DCA at all, but absolutely felt like I needed it in DL. More to do in the busiest parks in the world still mean busy rides. The more rides, the harder it is to fit them all in, especially if you are doing a shorter trip or splitting between Disney and Universal. I find it super easy to get things done at DHS, DAK and Epcot without Genie+. The only hassle is GotG since there's the VQ. MK is where if I was on vacation, i'd get Genie+ for a day since it can be so busy there and there's a lot to do.

This is basic supply and demand economics. The more capacity means less demand(less people in each line) which would lead lower prices or less people buying as the lines are the driving factor for people to buy G+. Retheming an existing ride doesn't increase capacity, but does drive more people to that ride(and increase demand for G+).

You are adding additional factors to it which changes the economy. Things like VQ, overall attendance controls through reservations, your personal park goals, and corporate reasoning for expansions vs retheming are all factors. But the basic economic rules don't change.

 

[GA-MBIT]

I think the conflict comes from the fact that even after all of these additions over the past 7 years, the parks still feel like they're aging or missing key components. The additions have been great, but they simply aren't enough to fight back a decade of complacency (the 2000s). That, mixed with Disney's insistence to build things at a glacial pace, cancel needed projects after they've already been announced, and seeming unending desire to not spend at least 25 million dollars on an off-the-shelf carousel...well I get the frustratiom as a theme park fan.

I wanna be excited for new WDW projects, especially after experiencing RotR and GotG. But I can't, because there is literally nothing else planned. It's just simply way easier to be a USF fan right now, with constant HHN spec, a relentless drive to make their park better, and a brand spankin' new theme park for the first time since the start of the millenium.

 

[Nick]

I think the conflict comes from the fact that even after all of these additions over the past 7 years, the parks still feel like they're aging or missing key components. The additions have been great, but they simply aren't enough to fight back a decade of complacency (the 2000s). That, mixed with Disney's insistence to build things at a glacial pace, cancel needed projects after they've already been announced, and seeming unending desire to not spend at least 25 million dollars on an off-the-shelf carousel...well I get the frustratiom as a theme park fan.

I wanna be excited for new WDW projects, especially after experiencing RotR and GotG. But I can't, because there is literally nothing else planned. It's just simply way easier to be a USF fan right now, with constant HHN spec, a relentless drive to make their park better, and a brand spankin' new theme park for the first time since the start of the millenium.

I can actually understand not doing the Poppins Carousel (and think they should've just built a carousel as a part of the new spine). The building was going to cost more than the ride and when guests waited in line for that only for it to be an indoors carousel, they were sure to be disappointed. I just don't think it was a well thought out idea, although I do wish they would do away with the Millennium Village so that the UK would have space for a D or E ticket. Not only would getting rid of the MV allow for the UK to get a ride, but also allow for Canada to possibly get a ride. I'd love to see a rapids ride at the Canada pavilion.

 

[GA-MBIT]

I mostly brought up the Carousel as an example of what could've been a very small, quick, and cheap addition that could've been a perfect way to add extra themed flair, kinetic energy, and entertainment for kids in a side of a park that is honestly really lacking all of that. It seems like a slam-dunk decision to add an outdoor carousel themed to a beloved property you could realistically finish within a summer with the budget and resources Disney has, but it got overthought and overbudgeted and now it won't exist at all. That sucks!

Especially when this was a thing that was announced, not even just something that hardcore fans knew was happening through permits or the rumor mill, but promised by Disney to happen! That story has happened quite a few times and with the state the parks are currently in, it's exhausting after awhile. It's exhausting to know as a Disney World fan that any announcement they make will take 3-5 years to come to fruition, and in that time it might be cost-cut in a million different visible ways (Slinky, GE, Navi River, Tiana), silently cancelled anyways (Poppins, Play!, a lot of the Epcot spine designs), or just be flat-out not worth it in the end (RoL, Starcruiser, even Tron kinda).

 

[Nick]

I mostly brought up the Carousel as an example of what could've been a very small, quick, and cheap addition that could've been a perfect way to add extra themed flair, kinetic energy, and entertainment for kids in a side of a park that is honestly really lacking all of that. It seems like a slam-dunk decision to add an outdoor carousel themed to a beloved property you could realistically finish within a summer with the budget and resources Disney has, but it got overthought and overbudgeted and now it won't exist at all. That sucks!

Especially when this was a thing that was announced, not even just something that hardcore fans knew was happening through permits or the rumor mill, but promised by Disney to happen! That story has happened quite a few times and with the state the parks are currently in, it's exhausting after awhile. It's exhausting to know as a Disney World fan that any announcement they make will take 3-5 years to come to fruition, and in that time it might be cost-cut in a million different visible ways (Slinky, GE, Navi River, Tiana), silently cancelled anyways (Poppins, Play!, a lot of the Epcot spine designs), or just be flat-out not worth it in the end (RoL, Starcruiser, even Tron kinda).

I can’t make the case that TRON isn’t worth it since it’s an expansion and it’s fun enough if the wait is on the shorter side plus it has a unique riding position for Orlando. Sure, the ride is short and kinda slower once you go inside with a lackluster track layout, especially compared to Cosmic Rewind.

Even with its shortcomings though, it’s an expansion which is the most important thing. Wish they would’ve built the Main Street Theater as an expansion there as well would’ve been a good use of space and added something MK currently doesn’t have, which is indoor theatrical shows.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

17 Billion will be spent for WDW over the course of 10 years.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

There's your response to EU.