Rivers of Light General Discussion and Photos

[epcyclopedia]

Epcot intrinsically has nighttime allure due to a few unintended reasons:

It's the second park. People go to MK first. Then they park hop to Epcot or on their second day after sleeping in they go to Epcot.

Epcot has two distinct halves, the nature of which makes people do Future World first and then World Showcase. For the record, World Showcase has always opened after Future World except during some event. It'd be really interesting to see what would happen if World Showcase opened at the same time for an extended period and if that would shift crowds.

World Showcase has dining. It is known for dining and if you're going to spend your theme park pennies for one sit down its dinner - though from a price and crowd and use of time standpoint lunch is a better value.

Now imagine if Pandora was only open at night. People would plan their evenings at AK.

 

[epcyclopedia]

Also, I take modest glee in the whole "we close the safari for the animals" myth coming back to bite the powers-that-be in the butt.

 

[Brian G.]

IPs on the rides have nothing to do with Illuminations.

And yes that was the expectation this year and it failed. But the expectation was also that Rivers of Light would be working with all intended effects (Fire, Fog & Floating Lanterns - not present in CM preview) back in April.

No, the overall point I'm trying to make is that these days - IP is what sells. Epcot used to be an IP in itself until the recent trend. Illuminations has been around to mark its place where it didn't need a hook. Add in the "After 4" crowd and such... you get the point.

A lot of worries of RoL, which was discussed on here earlier, was will the lack of IP be a detriment...which is what SeventyOne was getting at.

 

[epcyclopedia]

Is now a good time to point out Rivers of Light is essentially a reworked Carnival de Lumier?

Which is why we have Illuminations - cuz it turns out park goers don't like circular lakes having viewing on only two small areas - oh yeah, and big projection screens do not a show make.

 

[epcyclopedia]

No, the overall point I'm trying to make is that these days - IP is what sells. Epcot used to be an IP in itself until the recent trend. Illuminations has been around to mark its place where it didn't need a hook. Add in the "After 4" crowd and such... you get the point.

A lot of worries of RoL, which was discussed on here earlier, was will the lack of IP be a detriment...which is what SeventyOne was getting at.

Who had these worries? Epcot fireworks shows never had IP and they've been around since the park opened.

 

[Brian G.]

Who had these worries? Epcot fireworks shows never had IP and they've been around since the park opened.

We discussed that RoL may be a tough sell to GP because of lack of IP.

 

[Nick]

No, the overall point I'm trying to make is that these days - IP is what sells. Epcot used to be an IP in itself until the recent trend. Illuminations has been around to mark its place where it didn't need a hook. Add in the "After 4" crowd and such... you get the point.

A lot of worries of RoL, which was discussed on here earlier, was will the lack of IP be a detriment...which is what SeventyOne was getting at.

I don't know if lack of IP is the problem though. From what people are saying, the problem is lack of story or any semblance of a grand finale. IP would do little to solve it... especially the most important part, being the finale. Disney doesn't seem to want to use fireworks at DAK for whatever reason (the whole animal excuse is BS) so making a memorable grand finale even with an IP is a challenge.

The good thing about RoL is that even with the moving parts, much of the story is still told around fountains, which means there's room for Disney to put in IPs if they feel it necessary down the line.

 

[Brian G.]

I don't know if lack of IP is the problem though. From what people are saying, the problem is lack of story or any semblance of a grand finale. IP would do little to solve it... especially the most important part, being the finale. Disney doesn't seem to want to use fireworks at DAK for whatever reason (the whole animal excuse is BS) so making a memorable grand finale even with an IP is a challenge.

The good thing about RoL is that even with the moving parts, much of the story is still told around fountains, which means there's room for Disney to put in IPs if they feel it necessary down the line.

Didn't say it was the problem, just saying it could be - per SeventyOne's guesstimation.

 

[Nick]

Didn't say it was the problem, just saying it could be - per SeventyOne's guesstimation.

Well it may certainly be. I'd like to think that people are open to new stories being told. I think the main issue with RoL right now is that the story is poorly conveyed from what i've heard.

 

[darkridelover]

Let's not forget the seating set up makes it so almost no one gets a good seat.

 

[Nick]

Let's not forget the seating set up makes it so almost no one gets a good seat.

The seating is a pretty bad design, but if you're basing that opinion off of the JB show, it's slightly unfair (for RoL viewing at least) as the seating was specifically designed around how Rivers of Light is meant to be shown.

 

[Nick]

I still say if a show based on a beloved IP like The Jungle Book couldn't convince crowds to stay past 5, a firew0rks-free, non-IP show isn't going to do much better. Conventional wisdom and crowd patterns don't change just because theme parks wish it so. It takes a Potter-level game-changer to shift things like that. This does not sound like a Potter-level game-changer.

My only thing to say to this is that I think crowd patterns could change, but it won't really be to Disney's benefit (as in people staying more days).

Think of it this way: Right now, DHS can be done in a few hours and their nighttime offerings aren't the best. DAK is a half day park if you're only hitting up the rides. I think we could easily see a crowd shift to where guests go to DHS during the day and DAK at night next year. Again, that doesn't benefit disney at all as they aren't spending any longer time on property, but it could change how people think about DAK. Then the REAL game changer is SWL as it will force people to spend a lot of time at DHS and a separate day at DAK if they want to see Pandora.

Not saying it will definitely happen, but it's a possibility that I can easily see happening. I'm sure Len Testa could provide some knowledge on if a trend such as that started this summer already.

 

[Nick]

So apparently there's another round of previews coming next week on Monday and Tuesday. It's not confirmed as to who the previews are for yet, but i'd assume more CM previews? If not CM previews, then maybe they are feeling comfortable enough to do a soft open?

 

[SeventyOne]

Jungle Book had two major things going against it, one being that is was a poorly executed and thrown together show, and two was the fact there wasn't a night time attraction spectacular enough to convince people to stay later.

That explains why it bombed among Theme Park Twitter and the boards. Joe from Jersey and the other 97% of Summer park-goers didn't know it was a weak show. They still chose mostly to skip it so they could eat in EPCOT or hit the hotel pool. And that was with a strong IP.

 

[SeventyOne]

Epcot has been keeping people until close for their "non-IP" show for as long as Illuminations has existed in it's different forms. This is not and IP vs. non-IP thing.

Not a joke, I think that's because of the large number of dinner-oriented restaurants in WS. To a lot of tourists, that's the majority of places where you eat a nighttime meal in all of the resort. Also, Illuminations has been there forever, relatively speaking. EPCOT has been seen as a "nighttime" park for over a generation now.

 

[Nick]

That explains why it bombed among Theme Park Twitter and the boards. Joe from Jersey and the other 97% of Summer park-goers didn't know it was a weak show. They still chose mostly to skip it so they could eat in EPCOT or hit the hotel pool. And that was with a strong IP.

With Pandora opening next year and RoL presumably opening to the public nightly eventually, I have to think WDW is going to really push hard to sell DAK's nighttime qualities. Maybe there will be a (small) nighttime show in Pandora too that they will want to promote.

Again, not that they didn't push for nighttime stuff in 2016, but there was no incentive. With no new rides, why should people waste there time sticking around to ride the safari *at night* when they already rode it in the morning? It will likely be a slow process to change people's touring plans, but as I stated in another post, with DHS basically a 1/4 day park (and average nighttime entertainment), I can see DHS being the day park to DAK's nighttime visit.

Will this actually happen? Maybe, maybe not. But just because there's no IP, I wouldn't count it out.

 

[SeventyOne]

Didn't say it was the problem, just saying it could be - per SeventyOne's guesstimation.

To stress, I personally have no problem with non-IP entertainment. But there is no question it's what the general visiting public wants. Or at least what grabs their attention.

The larger problem here is DAK is like a water park--vast majority of guests don't stay past 4, despite promise of lower crowds, better weather, etc. Jungle Book is a pretty huge IP--the remake was surprisingly well-received, and Baloo and Louie never really went away since the 60s (TaleSpin probably helped here with late Gen Xers). If the promise of a nighttime Jungle Book extravaganza can't lure people to stay, how will a generically named show get the job done? Again, casual visitors, not super fans.

 

[Nick]

If the promise of a nighttime Jungle Book extravaganza can't lure people to stay, how will a generically named show get the job done? Again, casual visitors, not super fans.

If there's any counterpoint to be made here, ALL of the WDW main-stay shows are generically named and some even IP-free. Wishes. IllumiNations. Fantasmic!

Rivers of Light is the most creative title if you simply want to talk about the naming of the show since IllumiNations.

 

[Brian G.]

If there's any counterpoint to be made here, ALL of the WDW main-stay shows are generically named and some even IP-free. Wishes. IllumiNations. Fantasmic!

Rivers of Light is the most creative title if you simply want to talk about the naming of the show since IllumiNations.

Some as in one?

Wishes - at the premier park, with activities that can last into late night. Uber magical, dream is a wish... yada yada

Epcot - impressive, but dated firework display that can rely on the after 4 "dinner" crowd as well as a reputation for being around so long.

Fantasmic - See Sorceror Mickey and others. Also has a stellar reputation.

AK - Essentially a light and fountain show with no IP that's within a park that struggles to keep guests late.

 

[Joel]

Some as in one?

Wishes - at the premier park, with activities that can last into late night. Uber magical, dream is a wish... yada yada

Epcot - impressive, but dated firework display that can rely on the after 4 "dinner" crowd as well as a reputation for being around so long.

Fantasmic - See Sorceror Mickey and others. Also has a stellar reputation.

AK - Essentially a light and fountain show with no IP that's within a park that struggles to keep guests late.

Let's not forget about Jingle Bell, Jingle