Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

[ChrisFL]

I’m going to keep repeating - the original trilogy had three directors. Rian wasn’t the problem. It was the fact that he was allowed to write the story for the movie as if this was his own original film. They needed an overarching vision and they would’ve been fine.

Agreed.

 

[Nick]

So they hire Rian Johnson, he takes everything JJ set up and tosses it out the window and then has another director (initially Colin Trevorrow) to clean it up....yes, brilliant plan.

It would have been better if Rian was tasked with Ep 8 and 9, so at least we could get more of an idea of what he was going for by tossing out all of the ideas from Ep 7, but no, instead he's got the middle film and left another poor person to clean it up.

None of that was fully Rian’s fault though. Kathy wanted to give them artistic freedom instead of a rough story outline which bit them in the behind.

 

[JungleSkip]

I'm also just completely baffled by the idea that Rian threw everything JJ did out.

Would be like complaining Irvin Kershner in Empire threw out everything George did in Star Wars

 

[Cup_Of_Coffee]

The problem boils down to this: Different writers for all 3 different films that are supposed to be a trilogy. George Lucas mapped out the OT, and the PT. Im not familiar with he director situation for the prequels but the OT didn't have the same directors either. THE problem here, is that there was absolutely zero plan with this trilogy and they wanted to go 1 by 1. The most obvious cash grab in the history of cinema tbh. Used almost the exact same plot points from the original trilogy, brought maybe 2-3 new characters we'll actually remember in 5-10 year, mainly due do the actors who played them. Just poorly and lazily planned through.

Who gets that blame? Disney and Kathleen Kennedy.

However, doesn't mean that JJ and Rian aren't each to blame. Rian didn't work with anything that JJ gave him really, JJ ignored whole heartedly The Last Jedi, it was absolute mess of a trilogy, I don't see how anyone can't feel that way.

 

[JungleSkip]

George Lucas mapped out the OT, and the PT.

Hooooooooooooo boy George absolutely did not. The OT was a seat-of-the-pants operation. Vader wasn't Luke's father until a late draft of Empire, and Leia wasn't Luke's sister until a late draft of ROTJ.

The PT just had a designated end point, so it seems a lot better planned out. But if you want the behind the scenes materials for it, it's abundantly clear George was making them up as he went as well.

Rian didn't work with anything that JJ gave him really.

He did, it's just that some people didn't like the answers, so they pretend he didn't.

 

[ChrisFL]

I'm also just completely baffled by the idea that Rian threw everything JJ did out.

Would be like complaining Irvin Kershner in Empire threw out everything George did in Star Wars

Ok let's go down the list

Luke wanting to be found - tossed out
Luke's lightsaber - tossed out literally
Rey's backstory - tossed out
Finn character growth - tossed out
Snoke's importance and identity - tossed out
General Hux being a good, possibly scary villain - tossed out (for really bad humor)
Kylo's helmet - tossed out
Phasma's (possible) death - tossed out
Admiral Ackbar - given a death off screen, barely a mention for fans

....to name a few

 

[CTank]

Overall, I'm just going to say that this sequel trilogy has given me new appreciation for the prequel trilogy. CONTROVERSIAL. Nobody take the pitchforks to me. :bolt:

The prequel acting may not be top notch (except Ewan McGregor), a lot of the dialogue is cheesy ("I hate sand"), and Jar Jar Binks exists. But the 3 movies are clearly the beginning, middle, and end to an actual cohesive story. You absolutely cannot say that about the sequel trilogy.

Spoiler

Here's my overall thoughts now that I've sat with it for a couple days.

• Things I liked:
• Kylo Ren/ Ben Solo. Adam Driver was just fantastic throughout.
• All the force ghosts taking to Rey. That was an awesome moment. Even though I kinda wanted to actually see all the force ghosts.
• Reylo.
• The core 3 FINALLY went on a mission together. I have no idea why that took so long to make happen. But I did enjoy their dynamic.

• Things I didn't like:
• The title. This really didn't sit well with me that the Palpatine was just going to take the name Skywalker and that was that.
• The ending. Ben just dies? Like I get that someone probably had to die and it was the end of his "redemption" but I hated it. I'm sure some people liked that, but I would have much rather have had Ben and Rey lead the Jedi on together. I just wanted a happy ending dammit. But I guess JJ was never going to give the original villain a happy ending...
• The entire Palpatine story line was just thrown out there in the opening crawl without any context from the first 2 movies to credit it. Like here's the Emperor. He's the bad guy. Again.
• Finn needing 3 female potential love interests. But not actually having a romantic subplot.
• WHERE WAS ROSE. What a waste of a character that they spent an entire subplot on the TLJ. Granted it was that boring Canto Bight story line, but it was more than an half hour of screen time just to ignore her now!
• Rey's force soulmate dies for her to live and 2 minutes later she's forgotten him? Mhmm. Kay.
• I also wanted more R2D2, but that's been a running theme for me throughout. And I know BB8 was his replacement. But still.

I guess I was just hoping for more than what we actually got and now I'm disappointed. :shrug:

 

[Cup_Of_Coffee]

Hooooooooooooo boy George absolutely did not. The OT was a seat-of-the-pants operation. Vader wasn't Luke's father until a late draft of Empire, and Leia wasn't Luke's sister until a late draft of ROTJ.

The PT just had a designated end point, so it seems a lot better planned out. But if you want the behind the scenes materials for it, it's abundantly clear George was making them up as he went as well.



He did, it's just that some people didn't like the answers, so they pretend he didn't.

1: Where is your source for George not planning out the trilogy? And no, no one is expecting 3 completed scripts for the films before they begin, he most certainly had an overarching plan, which this trilogy did not, clearly. Adding some plot points in as you go is necessary, but creating an entire new film from scratch each time you go throughout the trilogy is just stupid. And yes, the PT had an end point planned from the beginning, this trilogy did not. As a trilogy, those films work a lot better.
Its also just my opinion lol.

 

[JungleSkip]

1: Where is your source for George not planning out the trilogy? And no, no one is expecting 3 completed scripts for the films before they begin, he most certainly had an overarching plan, which this trilogy did not, clearly. Adding some plot points in as you go is necessary, but creating an entire new film from scratch each time you go throughout the trilogy is just stupid. And yes, the PT had an end point planned from the beginning, this trilogy did not. As a trilogy, those films work a lot better.
Its also just my opinion lol.

I mean this is common knowledge that huge, OT defining plot points were very late additions to their respective movies.

Luke wanting to be found - tossed out

Luke...didn't want to be found. That's why he made himself unfindable.

Rey's backstory - tossed out

We learn Rey's backstory. Answering a question isn't tossing something out. It's answering a question in a way you personally did not enjoy. Rian did not "toss" anything out, because there was nothing to be tossed out.

Finn character growth - tossed out

WHAT? Finn's arc progresses in TLJ is great. He ends TFA free from the First Order, but he still isn't a believer in the Resistance. He just wants to save Rey. By the end of TLJ, he's ready to sacrifice himself for the cause, not his friend. He becomes the legend Rose thought he was at the beginning of the movie.

Snoke's importance and identity - tossed out

Again, no. Snoke served his purpose to the drama. He was there to turn Kylo, and then for Kylo to do what Vader never did, and kill him to become the master.

General Hux being a good, possibly scary villain - tossed out (for really bad humor)

Hux is a great character in both movies.

Kylo's helmet - tossed out

If by "tossed out" you mean "character development", sure.

Phasma's (possible) death - tossed out

Ah yes, because JJ did such a great job making her a worthwhile character in TFA. Phasma is the Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy. A lame character in a cool costume.

Admiral Ackbar - given a death off screen, barely a mention for fans

LOL Admiral Ackbar is a freakin' meme. I can't believe people are still upset about a character with like 4 lines of dialogue in ROTJ.

 

[Cup_Of_Coffee]

I mean this is common knowledge that huge, OT defining plot points were very late additions to their respective movies.



Luke...didn't want to be found. That's why he made himself unfindable.



We learn Rey's backstory. Answering a question isn't tossing something out. It's answering a question in a way you personally did not enjoy. Rian did not "toss" anything out, because there was nothing to be tossed out.



WHAT? Finn's arc progresses in TLJ is great. He ends TFA free from the First Order, but he still isn't a believer in the Resistance. He just wants to save Rey. By the end of TLJ, he's ready to sacrifice himself for the cause, not his friend. He becomes the legend Rose thought he was at the beginning of the movie.



Again, no. Snoke served his purpose to the drama. He was there to turn Kylo, and then for Kylo to do what Vader never did, and kill him to become the master.



Hux is a great character in both movies.



If by "tossed out" you mean "character development", sure.



Ah yes, because JJ did such a great job making her a worthwhile character in TFA. Phasma is the Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy. A lame character in a cool costume.



LOL Admiral Ackbar is a freakin' meme. I can't believe people are still upset about a character with like 4 lines of dialogue in ROTJ.

Im getting the vibe you haven't seen The Rise of Skywalker yet....

Also, don't knock down others opinions, you frankly do it constantly. We can debate these things all we want but saying "I can't believe people are upset with this character dying" is just downgrading others opinions, literally just stop it.

 

[JungleSkip]

Im getting the vibe you haven't seen The Rise of Skywalker yet....

Also, don't knock down others opinions, you frankly do it constantly. We can debate these things all we want but saying "I can't believe people are upset with this character dying" is just downgrading others opinions, literally just stop it.

I know everything that's happening in TROS. I'm responding from the position RJ was in when he made TLJ. The "Palpatine's behind it all" conceit was just not a thing at the time. JJ just decided to bring him back when he came back to episode IX.

And you can be sad that Admiral Ackbar died. But holding it as some great injustice is hilarious.

Again, you can not like TLJ all you want. I'm just responding to the idea that RJ was being malicious when he made his movie. He wasn't. He was just answering the questions (of which there were NO ANSWERS at the time) the best he saw fit. People can not like it all they want, but making up this idea that RJ came in and spat in JJ's face or something just isn't true.

 

[Cup_Of_Coffee]

I know everything that's happening in TROS. I'm responding from the position RJ was in when he made TLJ. The "Palpatine's behind it all" conceit was just not a thing at the time. JJ just decided to bring him back when he came back to episode IX.

And you can be sad that Admiral Ackbar died. But holding it as some great injustice is hilarious.

Again, you can not like TLJ all you want. I'm just responding to the idea that RJ was being malicious when he made his movie. He wasn't. He was just answering the questions (of which there were NO ANSWERS at the time) the best he saw fit. People can not like it all they want, but making up this idea that RJ came in and spat in JJ's face or something just isn't true.

Okay ya I don't agree Rian did anything in spite, but its hard after seeing Rise of Skywalker (you need to see it to fully understand my point) that TLJ stands alone almost now after this final movie. Cant get into it without spoilers, but honestly, Rise is an apology letter and cancellation of The Last Jedi. Its sad, but shows how out of touch Rian was when making this film. Or, you blame JJ for tossing everything Rian did out the window, but Rian did somewhat the same, again, an overarching Plot to this trilogy would have helped. Maybe Lucas added in some very key plot points in the OT, but he did not start each film from complete scratch and give their directors the freedom to do literally whatever they want.

The Last Jedi to me was the best made and overall best film of the series, although I dint like what they did with Luke, but it doesn't fit in one bit with the trilogy now knowing how things end up. If you see the film, its literally like "Nah, that didn't happen, here's this instead" rather than a "plot twist" type deal, if that makes sense.

Ultimate blame goes to Disney and Kathleen Kennedy but the directors have major fault as well. What Rian did was close out a lot of plot points from TFA, how do you do that in a sequel film in a trilogy?

 

[JungleSkip]

Okay ya I don't agree Rian did anything in spite, but its hard after seeing Rise of Skywalker (you need to see it to fully understand my point) that TLJ stands alone almost now after this final movie. Cant get into it without spoilers, but honestly, Rise is an apology letter and cancellation of The Last Jedi.

Yes, I'm completely aware of this. I know literally everything that happens in the movie.

Or, you blame JJ for tossing everything Rian did out the window, but Rian did somewhat the same,

Again, no, Rian did not, because he was not told what the plan was, because *there was no plan*. TFA and TLJ connect seamlessly. TROS does not.

What Rian did was close out a lot of plot points from TFA, how do you do that in a sequel film in a trilogy?

So what!? So what!? He left the door open with *so many more* questions. What would Kylo do as the Supreme Leader of the First Order? How would he react having everything he ever wanted, but finding it to be a hollow victory? How could Hux, a rabid cur, somehow undermine Kylo to the point of getting the power he always craved? How would Finn, Poe, and Rose put together a Resistance that stood any semblance of a chance against even more overwhelming odds? How would Rey react now that Kylo was truly gone? Would she choose to try and redeem him still? Or would she realize he needed to be killed, tempting her to the dark side in the process.

All interesting, new avenues for Star Wars, and instead we got a half baked ROTJ clone.

 

[belloq87]

Luke...didn't want to be found. That's why he made himself unfindable.

Except he didn't make himself unfindable. He left a map to his location. There's no other plausible explanation for why the map in THE FORCE AWAKENS exists in the form it does (multiple pieces), and especially why R2 has the pivotal missing piece.

I'm just responding to the idea that RJ was being malicious when he made his movie.

I've never thought Johnson was being malicious. I think he was being way too cute.

 

[ChrisFL]

Luke...didn't want to be found. That's why he made himself unfindable.

Which is why he left a map, naturally

We learn Rey's backstory. Answering a question isn't tossing something out. It's answering a question in a way you personally did not enjoy. Rian did not "toss" anything out, because there was nothing to be tossed out.

It was setup to be discovered...Rian decided to toss it out

WHAT? Finn's arc progresses in TLJ is great. He ends TFA free from the First Order, but he still isn't a believer in the Resistance. He just wants to save Rey. By the end of TLJ, he's ready to sacrifice himself for the cause, not his friend. He becomes the legend Rose thought he was at the beginning of the movie.

In the beginning of the movie, he was running away, trying to take an escape pod

Again, no. Snoke served his purpose to the drama. He was there to turn Kylo, and then for Kylo to do what Vader never did, and kill him to become the master.

For what purpose? We found nearly nothing about him, so he's not the grand villain, he's just some nobody with MAJOR FORCE powers...sure.

Hux is a great character in both movies.

Significant downgrade from Tarkin....Poe wouldn't joke to Tarkin like that and Tarkin wouldn't take his crap

If by "tossed out" you mean "character development", sure.

What character development? Snoke basically called Kylo a whiny cosplayer at that point...because that won't make any Star Wars fans upset at all.

Ah yes, because JJ did such a great job making her a worthwhile character in TFA. Phasma is the Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy. A lame character in a cool costume.

No explanation of how she survived....only to get tossed again.

LOL Admiral Ackbar is a freakin' meme. I can't believe people are still upset about a character with like 4 lines of dialogue in ROTJ.

He was still a fan favorite...that's one of the big issues, that Rian seemed to not care about anything the fans wanted. I keep hearing that people think TLJ is the best Star Wars movie, but that's basically saying you don't like Star Wars movies.

They have a formula and they have a long established focus...why change that in the 8th film of the franchise?

I also compared TLJ to New Coke as I believe someone did on here as well....similar thing. NEW Flavor that some people love more, but it changes what people loved too much.

 

[JungleSkip]

Which is why he left a map, naturally

He didn't leave a map. He DELETED the part of the map in R2 that would have led people to him. That doesn't seem like someone who wants to be found.

It was setup to be discovered...Rian decided to toss it out

No, it was discovered. Just not in a way you liked.

In the beginning of the movie, he was running away, trying to take an escape pod

To save Rey from being killed when she came back to the Resistance. In line with the character arc I described.

For what purpose? We found nearly nothing about him, so he's not the grand villain, he's just some nobody with MAJOR FORCE powers...sure.

So literally just like the Emperor from the OT.

And you're correct. He wasn't the grand villain. Kylo was set up to be that by the end of TLJ.

Significant downgrade from Tarkin....Poe wouldn't joke to Tarkin like that and Tarkin wouldn't take his crap

Tarkin was in one freaking SW movie and died because he was an overconfident goon, and every Imperial general or admiral we saw after him was a dummy who got choked to death by Vader. I'd say Hux is in line with basically every Imperial-type we've ever seen in one of these films.

What character development? Snoke basically called Kylo a whiny cosplayer at that point...because that won't make any Star Wars fans upset at all.

Because Kylo WAS a whiny cosplayer at that point. TFA sets him up as a confused man who wants to take his grandfather's legacy. Snoke's goading and his connection with Rey then makes him realize he can *do what his grandfather never could* and take ultimate power for himself. He had to stop living in his grandfather's shadow (he literally says this in the dang movie), and destroying the mask was a metaphor for that. In the end of the movie he's the most powerful being in the galaxy, and he did it by trying not to be his Grandfather any more.

No explanation of how she survived....only to get tossed again.

Does it matter how she survived?

Rian seemed to not care about anything the fans wanted. I keep hearing that people think TLJ is the best Star Wars movie, but that's basically saying you don't like Star Wars movies.

TLJ is my third favorite SW movie. To say that I don't like SW movies because of that is asinine. TLJ opened up what could have been a myriad of new directions for the galaxy to go, at least until we pigeon holed it back into "You got the special blood" this go around.

They have a formula and they have a long established focus...why change that in the 8th film of the franchise?

So that the franchise can grow instead of being stale rehashes of better movies.

 

[Cup_Of_Coffee]

Yes, I'm completely aware of this. I know literally everything that happens in the movie.



Again, no, Rian did not, because he was not told what the plan was, because *there was no plan*. TFA and TLJ connect seamlessly. TROS does not.



So what!? So what!? He left the door open with *so many more* questions. What would Kylo do as the Supreme Leader of the First Order? How would he react having everything he ever wanted, but finding it to be a hollow victory? How could Hux, a rabid cur, somehow undermine Kylo to the point of getting the power he always craved? How would Finn, Poe, and Rose put together a Resistance that stood any semblance of a chance against even more overwhelming odds? How would Rey react now that Kylo was truly gone? Would she choose to try and redeem him still? Or would she realize he needed to be killed, tempting her to the dark side in the process.

All interesting, new avenues for Star Wars, and instead we got a half baked ROTJ clone.

Im glad you don't make these movies lol. Rian tainted this trilogy, there's just no denying it. Leaving us with no plot (What would Kylo do as Supreme Leader is kill people, not an interesting plot) and concluding everything from the first film was a terrible decision. How do you make a sequel movie be "Everyone is a hero", like what? Thats a conclusion. Rian Johnson made a spin off film in my opinion, not a film that was meant to be part of the 2nd trilogy. Rian would've been PERFECT for Rise of Skywalker, and JJ should've done Episode 8 if I had everything my way. Or, give the trilogy to Rian.

I think there's just no use in defending TLJ's plot points anymore because they mean absolutely nothing to the franchise now it just seems like a waste imo.

 

[JungleSkip]

Rian tainted this trilogy, there's just no denying it.

There is.

Leaving us with no plot (What would Kylo do as Supreme Leader is kill people, not an interesting plot)

Yes he absolutely would kill people. You're right. But imagine the more he killed, the more he realized his "victory" was a hollow one, leading him to be even more conflicted than he ever was before. Especially with Luke playing his Cesar's Ghost, telling him there is no true victory in his path. If you don't think that's interesting as heck from a dramatic standpoint, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[ChrisFL]

JungleSkip:

So you're not denying that Rian changed things, but you just think Rian did it for good reasons and a lot of people disagree. There's a big reason why it's the most divisive movie in the entire series.

Again, if he was doing both Ep 8 and 9, I would be more forgiving as he could finish with all of the changes he tossed out, but he wasn't.

 

[JungleSkip]

So you're not denying that Rian changed things

No. I'm saying it literally would have been *impossible* for him to change things because there *was no plan to change*