The Ticketmaster Takedown | Inside Universal Forums

The Ticketmaster Takedown

  • Signing up for a Premium Membership is a donation to help Inside Universal maintain costs and offers an ad-free experience on the forum. Learn more about it here.

Allison

Staff
Apr 18, 2018
1,154
4,305
As we all have probably heard by now, the process to buy tickets for Taylor Swift’s upcoming tour was a disastrous one. I know I have my ticket buying process story, as do many, many, many others. However, it has now stretched much further than one artist and with the Department of Justice getting involved this *will* come to effect the entire ticketing industry—which includes Hard Rock at City Walk (who utilizes Ticketmaster) and House of Blues at Disney Springs (who utilizes Live Nation which is owned by Ticketmaster).

So if you’re following along and/or are curious how this will change attending events at City Walk & Disney Springs, please check this thread for updates.





 
Pearl Jam told us about it in the 90's and nothing happened (might have been no one could understand Eddie Vedder's muttering...)

I know I’m biased, and no offense whatsoever to Pearl Jam, but even in the 90’s I don’t think they’re as big commercially as Taylor. At this point in her career her impact culturally is probably more along the lines of The Beatles/Elvis/Michael Jackson.

If anyone actually can make a change, it’s her.
 
Not really a Taylor Swift fan, but this is really interesting to see unfold. I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about the whole mess and it’s just straight-up unethical what Ticketmaster has been doing. I’m not super familiar with how Ticketmaster has run things, but if it really is this shady how they run it, I’m glad it’s coming to light and some stuff is being done about this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darko
Yeah, this is going to be a cluster. Ticketmaster is definitely a problem, but all of these venues signed contracts with them, and then Swift chose what venues to book knowing that meant she'd be dealing with Ticketmaster. It's not just Ticketmaster that's the problem.

So many layers to this one too. The fees are ridiculous. Ticketmaster needs cut down to size on that front alone, but I don't know how that gets regulated. You can't set max fees easily.

The ticket prices, which would have been set by the artist's team, were insane. And that's important to remember. Ticketmaster didn't force them to charge $100+ for nosebleed seats. The best I can tell they also didn't announce prices in advance, which is a pretty shady move. The artist could have announced prices but didn't. You ended up with people going through the process to get the pre-release code, then waiting online for a long time that day to get tickets just to find out how overpriced it was. But that's another problem. You can't regulate what artists charge for tickets.

The, probably, biggest problem, was putting all of the tickets on sale at the same time. There was no way their system wasn't crashing. They knew it was going to crash. This has happened before with other tours with them. Why would they not stagger the on sale times? If they do that, this probably isn't happening right now.

There's no fixing the scalping. They can make it harder to transfer tickets, but they can't make it so you can't transfer them at all. At that point you are going to have people running the prices up.

As for the Ticketmaster "monopoly", I don't know what can be done there. I don't know this truly falls under monopoly as there are other ticketing companies and other venues that use them. Even if you make the argument that they are, what's the fix? You can't have more than one company selling tickets for the same event. It would be impossible to control inventory. Individual venues really need consistency too for ticket processing, so having different ticket companies sell tickets for the same venue even if it's different events isn't ideal. And, if you are putting a tour on, doing dozens of events across the country, it's much easier to deal with one ticket company than multiple. Even if you figure a way to split it up or open it up to multiple companies, you will still end up paying a $10 or whatever fee for a ticket. It'll just change what company gets that fee. The "competition will lead to smaller companies charging less" argument is nice in theory, and it would do that right off the bat. But over time, dealing with hundreds of thousands of tickets and all of the online and on site processing isn't easy. The first time one of these cheaper companies screws up a major tour's tickets because they couldn't afford the tech staff or bandwidth, they are done. So you end up with companies charging more to cover the infrastructure, and bigger companies surviving while smaller companies fade away. That's why Ticketmaster is where it's at. They can handle, almost, any event. Artists accept the huge fees that just get passed on to their fans because it's easier on them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. I think the Justice department and/or Congress eventually looks the other way as this is a mess. There's not an easy fix. Lawsuits are another game completely. I don't know what change a court could force either, but you never know on that. I don't know enough of the legal argument of pain and suffering from not getting your tay tay tickets to say how much teeth that has. I suspect one of the changes that ends up happening is Ticketmaster ends up changing their fee structure so that the fees get moved from the customer side to the artist side. This would have the effect of "raising ticket prices" but eliminating fees. Ticketmaster can then advertise they aren't charging customers fees. The reason it is the way it is now is transparency, but it's clear people don't like the dirty details.
 
The fees have really gotten out of hand. I don’t even care about the prices, but the fees are absolutely bonkers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darko
The fees are ridiculous and scalpers/ticket flippers have ruined live events everywhere. Wish there was a way to make it so if you wanted to sell off your ticket it could only be done so at the face value that it was purchased for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darko
Yeah, this is going to be a cluster. Ticketmaster is definitely a problem, but all of these venues signed contracts with them, and then Swift chose what venues to book knowing that meant she'd be dealing with Ticketmaster. It's not just Ticketmaster that's the problem.

So many layers to this one too. The fees are ridiculous. Ticketmaster needs cut down to size on that front alone, but I don't know how that gets regulated. You can't set max fees easily.

The ticket prices, which would have been set by the artist's team, were insane. And that's important to remember. Ticketmaster didn't force them to charge $100+ for nosebleed seats. The best I can tell they also didn't announce prices in advance, which is a pretty shady move. The artist could have announced prices but didn't. You ended up with people going through the process to get the pre-release code, then waiting online for a long time that day to get tickets just to find out how overpriced it was. But that's another problem. You can't regulate what artists charge for tickets.

The, probably, biggest problem, was putting all of the tickets on sale at the same time. There was no way their system wasn't crashing. They knew it was going to crash. This has happened before with other tours with them. Why would they not stagger the on sale times? If they do that, this probably isn't happening right now.

There's no fixing the scalping. They can make it harder to transfer tickets, but they can't make it so you can't transfer them at all. At that point you are going to have people running the prices up.

As for the Ticketmaster "monopoly", I don't know what can be done there. I don't know this truly falls under monopoly as there are other ticketing companies and other venues that use them. Even if you make the argument that they are, what's the fix? You can't have more than one company selling tickets for the same event. It would be impossible to control inventory. Individual venues really need consistency too for ticket processing, so having different ticket companies sell tickets for the same venue even if it's different events isn't ideal. And, if you are putting a tour on, doing dozens of events across the country, it's much easier to deal with one ticket company than multiple. Even if you figure a way to split it up or open it up to multiple companies, you will still end up paying a $10 or whatever fee for a ticket. It'll just change what company gets that fee. The "competition will lead to smaller companies charging less" argument is nice in theory, and it would do that right off the bat. But over time, dealing with hundreds of thousands of tickets and all of the online and on site processing isn't easy. The first time one of these cheaper companies screws up a major tour's tickets because they couldn't afford the tech staff or bandwidth, they are done. So you end up with companies charging more to cover the infrastructure, and bigger companies surviving while smaller companies fade away. That's why Ticketmaster is where it's at. They can handle, almost, any event. Artists accept the huge fees that just get passed on to their fans because it's easier on them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. I think the Justice department and/or Congress eventually looks the other way as this is a mess. There's not an easy fix. Lawsuits are another game completely. I don't know what change a court could force either, but you never know on that. I don't know enough of the legal argument of pain and suffering from not getting your tay tay tickets to say how much teeth that has. I suspect one of the changes that ends up happening is Ticketmaster ends up changing their fee structure so that the fees get moved from the customer side to the artist side. This would have the effect of "raising ticket prices" but eliminating fees. Ticketmaster can then advertise they aren't charging customers fees. The reason it is the way it is now is transparency, but it's clear people don't like the dirty details.

Great post. Not sure what legal ground the fans have to stand on here.
 
Great post. Not sure what legal ground the fans have to stand on here.

There’s at least one person I’ve seen mention publicly what form of the federal government has contacted them regarding their investigation on it, the lawsuits are pretty expansive, and seeing as how Ticketmaster has now also botched another artist’s presale, there’s actually a lot more to stand on than some people here may realize.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grabnar
There’s at least one person I’ve seen mention publicly what form of the federal government has contacted them regarding their investigation on it, the lawsuits are pretty expansive, and seeing as how Ticketmaster has now also botched another artist’s presale, there’s actually a lot more to stand on than some people here may realize.
I mean price gouging and (if you can prove it) price fixing are definitely grounds to TAKE to court…but given the unique nature of the third-party ticket sale business I’m not sure how successful said case would be.
 
  • Like
Reactions: belloq87
These should add to the understanding of the situation + some of the issues that are gonna most likely be investigated:






 
  • Like
Reactions: youhow2
I mean price gouging and (if you can prove it) price fixing are definitely grounds to TAKE to court…but given the unique nature of the third-party ticket sale business I’m not sure how successful said case would be.

Considering they sold out all of the concerts including additional concerts added after the fact, it's going to be hard to argue there was price gouging. There clearly was plenty of demand. But even still, Swift set the prices, and, it sounds like, agreed to the dynamic pricing which drives the prices even higher. That would mean the lawsuits would have to include the artists if they are going for price gouging. I'm not sure the legalities of dynamic pricing, but since airlines and other industries use it, it's probably considered settled law. There's also the fact that this is entertainment. It's not a necessary purchase, so it's not like running the price of medicines or milk up. The defendants have a clear "if you don't like the price, don't buy it" defense. I'm just having a hard time thinking the fans have a clear path to a winning lawsuit.

Now the artists not being able to book venues without using Ticketmaster is a potential winning legal fight, and probably has some teeth. I don't know the legal threshold, but if they can't book a single nfl, mlb, or college football stadium without using ticketmaster, then a stadium tour is impossible. For the artists, that is their livelihood, so has some legal protections.

Ultimately though, what the fans are mad about, ticket pricing and inability to get tickets, is still going to a problem if she sells her tickets through Ticketmaster or Bob's Discount Concert Tickets. It's still going to cost thousands for floor seats, people are still going to buy them to resell them, and there's still going to be more demand than tickets available. Busting up Ticketmaster won't fix that.
 
Let it burn. (I also did not get tickets... lol)

But there was so much wrong with this on-sale. If the demand was this unprecedented, they sure didn't act like it. Whoever mentioned the staggered on sale times nailed it.

How do you NOT do that? This has happened before for smaller tours. Also, practices to avoid ticket resellers that have been put into place for years also not employed for this, like when you had to bring credit card used to purchase to venue for entry. There was just so little done to prevent this disaster. it's actually pretty laughable.

But what can you do when it's the only show in town.
 
Considering they sold out all of the concerts including additional concerts added after the fact, it's going to be hard to argue there was price gouging. There clearly was plenty of demand. But even still, Swift set the prices, and, it sounds like, agreed to the dynamic pricing which drives the prices even higher. That would mean the lawsuits would have to include the artists if they are going for price gouging. I'm not sure the legalities of dynamic pricing, but since airlines and other industries use it, it's probably considered settled law. There's also the fact that this is entertainment. It's not a necessary purchase, so it's not like running the price of medicines or milk up. The defendants have a clear "if you don't like the price, don't buy it" defense. I'm just having a hard time thinking the fans have a clear path to a winning lawsuit.

Now the artists not being able to book venues without using Ticketmaster is a potential winning legal fight, and probably has some teeth. I don't know the legal threshold, but if they can't book a single nfl, mlb, or college football stadium without using ticketmaster, then a stadium tour is impossible. For the artists, that is their livelihood, so has some legal protections.

Ultimately though, what the fans are mad about, ticket pricing and inability to get tickets, is still going to a problem if she sells her tickets through Ticketmaster or Bob's Discount Concert Tickets. It's still going to cost thousands for floor seats, people are still going to buy them to resell them, and there's still going to be more demand than tickets available. Busting up Ticketmaster won't fix that.



Dynamic pricing was not on, if it was the prices would’ve been a lot higher.

I think this article really helps explain why Ticketmaster is under fire.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Darko and youhow2
You don't even need dynamic pricing when so many tickets are "Official Platinum" or VIP packages from the outset, which is the case with a lot of tours lately.
 
The ticketmaster thing, fees aside, they are a huge monopoly and unless you have had to work in live events you probably wouldn't understand, so I'm glad through Taylor Swift of all people, their practices are getting bought into the light . Theyve been blocking many attempts to bring up a case to end their monopoly for years. About time.


For one, when a major artist books a tour through ticketmaster/livenation usually the whole thing is packaged together and they agree on the number of shows and venue exclusivity. They give the artist a large advance for the tours and bonuses for sales performance. They perform at ticketmaster/livenation owned or contracted venues and no one else for the most part gets a show.

This is a gift and a curse.

The gift is really great, really dialed in shows and predictability for the artist and their team, guaranteed money, ease of logistics.

The curse is there is 0 competition in the big leagues to put together creative shows and tour packages... The industry has consolidated. There is little opportunity at this level for local and regional support acts, local promoters and the whole state level of the economy of shows hasn't existed in any meaningful form since arguably the late 90's, some would say it ended in the 80's... and one company owns it all, and funnels that money back into one giant mega corporation, away from local economies, while overcharging for everything because they are the only game in town. It's also why more local and regional arena shows have died over the years. Where Bob working back of house could cut deals on weaker shows and adjust fees, any show performing at any livenation venue is subject to their fee schedule and must use ticketmaster (and their fee schedule). It's made it all but impossible to compete and relegated local promotions of all kinds to mostly sub 1000 seat rooms for smaller bands and acts.


Now, for the industry itself, having one major company doing "everything". Tickets, promotion, etc. It's favorable. But, the elimination of risk in business has created a competition vacuum. As our world becomes more connected, the need for a company like LiveNation has diminished. Allowing ticketmaster to own so many of the large venues has destroyed shows.


Ticketmaster's ticketing agreements need to be given a 2 year sunset date. Ticketing can be done digitally now, there is no need for their business model any more.... Venues can afford to do their ticketing In House. Back when we only had landlines and box offices, ticketmaster made sense... Not anymore.
Live nation owns too many venues. The total market share of livenation/ticket master needs to be broken up so they own no more than 25% of ticketing contracts or venues. AEG and the other primary competition need not be allowed to own anymore as well. Ticket processor laws need to be updated so that independent venues can compete and have multiple options.
 
The ticketmaster thing, fees aside, they are a huge monopoly and unless you have had to work in live events you probably wouldn't understand, so I'm glad through Taylor Swift of all people, their practices are getting bought into the light . Theyve been blocking many attempts to bring up a case to end their monopoly for years. About time.


For one, when a major artist books a tour through ticketmaster/livenation usually the whole thing is packaged together and they agree on the number of shows and venue exclusivity. They give the artist a large advance for the tours and bonuses for sales performance. They perform at ticketmaster/livenation owned or contracted venues and no one else for the most part gets a show.

This is a gift and a curse.

The gift is really great, really dialed in shows and predictability for the artist and their team, guaranteed money, ease of logistics.

The curse is there is 0 competition in the big leagues to put together creative shows and tour packages... The industry has consolidated. There is little opportunity at this level for local and regional support acts, local promoters and the whole state level of the economy of shows hasn't existed in any meaningful form since arguably the late 90's, some would say it ended in the 80's... and one company owns it all, and funnels that money back into one giant mega corporation, away from local economies, while overcharging for everything because they are the only game in town. It's also why more local and regional arena shows have died over the years. Where Bob working back of house could cut deals on weaker shows and adjust fees, any show performing at any livenation venue is subject to their fee schedule and must use ticketmaster (and their fee schedule). It's made it all but impossible to compete and relegated local promotions of all kinds to mostly sub 1000 seat rooms for smaller bands and acts.


Now, for the industry itself, having one major company doing "everything". Tickets, promotion, etc. It's favorable. But, the elimination of risk in business has created a competition vacuum. As our world becomes more connected, the need for a company like LiveNation has diminished. Allowing ticketmaster to own so many of the large venues has destroyed shows.


Ticketmaster's ticketing agreements need to be given a 2 year sunset date. Ticketing can be done digitally now, there is no need for their business model any more.... Venues can afford to do their ticketing In House. Back when we only had landlines and box offices, ticketmaster made sense... Not anymore.
Live nation owns too many venues. The total market share of livenation/ticket master needs to be broken up so they own no more than 25% of ticketing contracts or venues. AEG and the other primary competition need not be allowed to own anymore as well. Ticket processor laws need to be updated so that independent venues can compete and have multiple options.

But don’t the artists/venues choose the channel through which the tickets are sold? There’s a difference between a monopoly and having economies of scale. From what I understand, if you’re Taylor Swift and the Rose Bowl or a local brewery and your neighbor’s garage band, you have the same access to the different vendors through which tickets are sold.

That’s why I don’t understand what the legal standing is. You can’t sue Wal Mart for putting local stores out of business because all they did was offer cheaper prices (a result of their own economies of scale) that customers CHOOSE to patronize. If we draw parallels to the Ticketmaster case, the customers here are the Taylor Swifts/arenas/stadiums of the world—they chose the vendor.

Now if Ticketmaster was working in tandem with rival ticket channels and agreeing to set prices at a certain level to keep business/demand at their preferred levels, THATS where you have an issue, and that’s what you’d have to prove in court.

If I’m misunderstanding the business model, then maybe this is all moot. Otherwise, what’s the end goal? You suggest a two-year limit on ticket agreements…that’s fine, but it won’t prevent preferred vendors from setting prices accordingly based on the demand from the talent and venues, it’ll just make contract negotiations more frequent.