Universal Great Britain

[JT01]

My understanding is that north of London, third rail electrification is rarely used instead, overhead line equipment is the standard, which is also what the current Eurostar trains rely on. One of the biggest issues is that the new Eurostar trains are built to the larger European loading gauge, meaning they’re too big to fit on most existing British railways. At present, they can only operate on the purpose-built High Speed 1 line. Upgrading the rest of the network to accommodate these larger trains would be extremely expensive, as it would require widening tunnels, platforms, and bridges. However, older Eurostar trains or other rolling stock built to the smaller British loading gauge could still operate on the existing rail infrastructure.

obviously the other large infrastructure additions at wixams for passport control , longer and secure platforms would in my opinion make it far to expensive to be economically viable.

Yeah, I’m not sure if it’ll actually happen either, but it’s honestly refreshing to see the government even considering it.


As for the infrastructure side of things since they’re building everything from scratch anyway, I can’t imagine that extending the platform a bit or adding a separate building for passport control would be what tips the scale on cost. The real challenge will be getting the trains to the site in the first place. That’s where things could get complicated.

 

[bedfordmassive]

Yeah, I’m not sure if it’ll actually happen either, but it’s honestly refreshing to see the government even considering it.


As for the infrastructure side of things since they’re building everything from scratch anyway, I can’t imagine that extending the platform a bit or adding a separate building for passport control would be what tips the scale on cost. The real challenge will be getting the trains to the site in the first place. That’s where things could get complicated.

Passport control would only be needed for return journey, right?

Technically they could do Eurostar with no passport control at the new station if the train runs in a triangle - Paris -> UGB -> St Pancras -> Paris.

Travellers could therefore get to UGB without UK side passport control, and take the local service back to St Pancras at the end of their visit to go through passport control there. That would give a very fast journey to get to UGB with a little bit of inconvenience on the return (which also has a side effect of encouraging a London stay after UGB).

Bedford is currently the terminus where train turnaround happens for Thameslink (and trains get cleaned etc) - not sure if trains would terminate at Wixams and turn around, or do that from the newly redeveloped Bedford station (which will be the major interchange between East Midlands line and East West Rail).

 

[Steeb]

After looking how akin to Universal Beijing this park is starting to shape up, it's made me change my guess on the final name.

I expected it was going to be 'Universal Studios Great Britain', but wondering now if they will match the UB naming convention and go with 'Universal Great Britain Resort'.

 

[sugey]

Passport control would only be needed for return journey, right?

Technically they could do Eurostar with no passport control at the new station if the train runs in a triangle - Paris -> UGB -> St Pancras -> Paris.

Travellers could therefore get to UGB without UK side passport control, and take the local service back to St Pancras at the end of their visit to go through passport control there. That would give a very fast journey to get to UGB with a little bit of inconvenience on the return (which also has a side effect of encouraging a London stay after UGB).

Bedford is currently the terminus where train turnaround happens for Thameslink (and trains get cleaned etc) - not sure if trains would terminate at Wixams and turn around, or do that from the newly redeveloped Bedford station (which will be the major interchange between East Midlands line and East West Rail).

Correct, border control occurs at the station of departure so that all happens in Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels etc. Once you arrive in the UK, you can just step of the train. So you only really need it for people leaving Universal and going back home.

The HS1 line doesn't have an option to go directly to the Midlands Mainline that goes to Bedford. All European trains will have to enter St. Pancras and then reverse out from there so it's most likely the case that some trains will just do the express shuttle service to Wixams after stopping in London.

But yes, you could forgo the border at Wixams if you just shuttle the Eurostar back to St Pancras. Disembark the entire train so they can go through the border there, and then go on to Paris whilst using that time stationary in London to maybe do some cleaning/restocking.

Also I keep referring to Eurostar but this could be them or any other future rail operator - but they do need a train (like the old Eurostars) that are compatible with both European and British loading gauges. Basically new Eurostars and other European trains are too big and tall to fit on our infrastructure. I don't expect to see any changes made to rail lines as it would be too expensive, only upgraded Wixams and Bedford stations. It might be easier if Universal operates privately an express rail connection from St. Pancras, leasing a British train, scheduled to coincide with Eurostar arrivals. It can also make a stop at Luton for the airport. Then they can work with Eurostar to sell a combo ticket.

Edit: I like the idea of a open access operator run by Universal or branded as such. It could connect St Pancras with Wixams via Luton Airport and then when East West rail is completed to Cambridge, the train could run an express service to Stansted Airport via Cambridge. Stansted sees an Emirates flight so is capable of handling large long haul flights - it might attract airlines to offer tourism routes from the US for example to Stansted which is more convenient than Heathrow or Gatwick. Also Stansted is already a very major hub for Ryanair and other European flights so it's a no brainer having an easy direct rail connection.

 

[MangoDance]

Correct, border control occurs at the station of departure so that all happens in Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels etc. Once you arrive in the UK, you can just step of the train. So you only really need it for people leaving Universal and going back home.

If it wasn't for that bloody WB Studio Tour 40 miles away they could just Floo network everyone directly from their fireplaces into the new park. That WB contract cannot expire quick enough!! /s

 

[tommyhawkins]

I think the "Eurostar to Universal" thing is being over stated. If its physically not easy to do and involves vast amounts of money on custom fit rolling stock then the cheapest/easiest option probably would just be you would be able to buy a ticket on Eurostar from your Mainland destination to Wixams Universal and the operators have a revenue agreement but in reality you have to swap trains at St Pancras and get a specific Thames link train. Or they run a shuttle of the old ES rolling stock that can fit the loading guage and you're swapping one Eurostar platform to another.

 

[EllieB]

Given how little interest Eurostar seem to have in reinstating the direct train to/from Disneyland Paris, I'd be amazed if they were going to try to make something work for Universal.

 

[rob@rar]

Given how little interest Eurostar seem to have in reinstating the direct train to/from Disneyland Paris, I'd be amazed if they were going to try to make something work for Universal.

Indeed, and running trains direct to Wixams is way more complicated than running trains direct to Marne-la-Vallee/DLP from St Pancras.

The current Eurostar provision will provide the basis for a convenient, flexible and very quick way for some international visitors to get to Universal by train. Using existing timetables there are multiple services per day from Paris, Lille, Brussels and Amsterdam. These services would just require a simple change of train when they arrive at St Pancras for a relatively short journey onwards to Wixams. This provides a very flexible service from multiple destinations, well beyond any offering of a direct service to Wixams. There's no way that there would be a direct service from all those destinations, multiple times per day, even if significant infrastructure changes were made to allow Eurostar to run direct to Universal.

 

[crawleyboy01]

I think the "Eurostar to Universal" thing is being over stated. If its physically not easy to do and involves vast amounts of money on custom fit rolling stock then the cheapest/easiest option probably would just be you would be able to buy a ticket on Eurostar from your Mainland destination to Wixams Universal and the operators have a revenue agreement but in reality you have to swap trains at St Pancras and get a specific Thames link train. Or they run a shuttle of the old ES rolling stock that can fit the loading guage and you're swapping one Eurostar platform to another.

While I agree that in it's current form there is next to no chance of a direct eurostar train, there are other options on the table. Virgin are currently looking at offering a service on that line. They are in a perfect situation to order/buy/rent stock that would work on both sides of the channel. I think the chance to connect two of the biggest theme parks in Europe would be a extremely attractive offer.

 

[BMC]

As much as Eurostar, Virgin or some other operator may wish to provide a service to Wixams/Universal, there is currently no capacity for additional services on the Midland Mainline between Bedford and London. You'd have to cut existing services to facilitate new ones. As others have said - I don't see it happening and it doesn't sound cost-effective to me when you already have a perfectly good, reliable and frequent connection between St Pancras and Wixams (or will have once they open the station).

 

[Jake S]

I think the chance to connect two of the biggest theme parks in Europe would be a extremely attractive offer.

I'm just not sure that it would be all that attractive an offer.

 

[sugey]

I'm just not sure that it would be all that attractive an offer.

Agreed. Only 30% of visitors that are expected to come from Europe and a huge chunk of that will prefer the lower costs (and likely faster too if they are coming from further afield like Spain or Germany) of budget airlines. Demand would be heavily seasonal too and so I don't think that warrants the cost of infrastructure upgrades (which always turns out to cost way more than expected) to facilitate continental train services and/or to pay full time border staff. There are 6 trains per hour from St Pancras to/from Bedford (2 EMR and 4 Thameslink) and when they all get nationalised it would hopefully be one entity/fare system. That's a train roughly every 10 minutes. Some easier ticketing/fare payment and signage at St. Pancras can make transfers very seamless. It would be better to explore ways of increasing capacity on existing rail lines through improved signalling for example. It looks like Luton gets 6 Thameslink trains an hour, 2 terminate there and 4 continue to Bedford. I don't see why those 2 can't continue on to Wixams at the very least as it hopefully will have enough platforms to accommodate it. 8 trains an hour is approaching Elizabeth line levels of frequency which is a much better business case as you can cater to airport and domestic travellers, not just Europeans who could afford a pricey train ticket.

 

[tommyhawkins]

As much as Eurostar, Virgin or some other operator may wish to provide a service to Wixams/Universal, there is currently no capacity for additional services on the Midland Mainline between Bedford and London. You'd have to cut existing services to facilitate new ones. As others have said - I don't see it happening and it doesn't sound cost-effective to me when you already have a perfectly good, reliable and frequent connection between St Pancras and Wixams (or will have once they open the station).

There are options for that problem though. There is/was a Stansted to London in 30 campaign...and Improvements were made to increase capacity and speed including adding a third line in places to create passing points, it still gets a bottle neck when it hits Hackney area so they haven't got 30mins yet but it's the same problem

 

[rob@rar]

While I agree that in its current form there is next to no chance of a direct eurostar train, there are other options on the table. Virgin are currently looking at offering a service on that line. They are in a perfect situation to order/buy/rent stock that would work on both sides of the channel. I think the chance to connect two of the biggest theme parks in Europe would be an extremely attractive offer.

Even if there was rail capacity on HS1 and then north of London, another operator such as Virgin would need to build their own security and border services, and pay for extended platforms at their destinations in order to compete with the long, high capacity trains that Eurostar runs. Makes no economic sense.

I'm just not sure that it would be all that attractive an offer.

If a family of four is travelling from those destinations currently served by Eurostar (Paris & NW France, Belgium, The Netherlands) the cheapest way to get to Bedford (and have to flexibility about what hotel you use) will be to drive, via ferry or Eurotunnel. When I was a frequent visitor to DLP if there were just two of us travelling it just about made financial sense to use the direct Eurostar service and stay in a Disney hotel. But if there were four of us travelling it was significantly cheaper to drive via the Eurotunnel.

 

[Chessy]

If a family of four is travelling from those destinations currently served by Eurostar (Paris & NW France, Belgium, The Netherlands) the cheapest way to get to Bedford (and have to flexibility about what hotel you use) will be to drive, via ferry or Eurotunnel. When I was a frequent visitor to DLP if there were just two of us travelling it just about made financial sense to use the direct Eurostar service and stay in a Disney hotel. But if there were four of us travelling it was significantly cheaper to drive via the Eurotunnel.

I haven’t been to DLP for a long time but I have been twice before and both times we drove. It’s fairly hassle free to use the Eurotunnel, I did look at the Eurostar once but including getting down to London and everything else it was a little expensive. I think quite a few visitors from the continent will arrive by car, it’s just easy to drive especially if you’re visiting other destinations also. I think people arriving by train will likely be the day trippers who are in London for the most part.

Something that I don’t think has been covered is do we think they have estimated correctly how many people will arrive by car? I always think with certain projects they underestimate how many vehicles. Obviously with the big improvements to the A421 and M1 junction 13 they do have a sense of traffic movement.

 

[EllieB]

Non-scientifically (i.e. just my opinion) I'd expect a large majority of people to come by car, unless the parking charge is huge and people are coming in small enough groups that the train fee is cheaper than the parking charge. A lot of the visitors will be domestic and we're all used to driving rather than catching the train because the trains in the UK are so expensive (and sometimes unreliable).

Of course they could encourage people to come by train if they wanted to, through discount ticket offers if you show a rail ticket (lots of UK attractions do this already in an attempt to be greener) but I don't know if they'd want to impact on their ticket income like that.

 

[rob@rar]

I haven’t been to DLP for a long time but I have been twice before and both times we drove. It’s fairly hassle free to use the Eurotunnel, I did look at the Eurostar once but including getting down to London and everything else it was a little expensive. I think quite a few visitors from the continent will arrive by car, it’s just easy to drive especially if you’re visiting other destinations also. I think people arriving by train will likely be the day trippers who are in London for the most part.

Something that I don’t think has been covered is do we think they have estimated correctly how many people will arrive by car? I always think with certain projects they underestimate how many vehicles. Obviously with the big improvements to the A421 and M1 junction 13 they do have a sense of traffic movement.

I’ve visited DLP many times by the direct Eurostar service and many times by car. Which of these travel options was determined almost entirely by price. The train option was very easy for us as we could easily get to Waterloo (where Eurostar used to operate from), the journey to DLP was just three hours and you arrived literally at the park gates, you would deposit your luggage at the train station for it to be taken to your Disney hotel, leaving you free to go straight to the theme park. It was quite a luxurious way to travel, but expensive. Alternatively, the drive via Eurotunnel for us took a couple of hours more, but gave us a wider selection of hotels including the option of packing plenty of food and staying in self-catering accommodation. For a family group this was a much cheaper way of visiting DLP.

So for Universal I think mode of travel will continue to be largely determined by perceptions of value and total cost. For plenty of overseas visitors the only sensible travel option will be to fly to a UK airport and either hire a car or take public transport. But from more distant parts of the UK and visitors from the nearest part of continental Europe there will be a choice between train or drive. For those people if the train tickets are reasonable and the on-site hotel is perceived as affordable why bother with the hassle of driving, why not let the train take the strain? But for this group of travellers driving and staying off-site is almost certain to be a cheaper option. With that equation in mind, Universal themselves can influence how people arrive at the park - do a great deal with the train companies for a travel/park entry/hotel package which is perceived as good value for money and more people will use the train. Alternatively, don’t offer train discounts and make the on-site hotel(s) seem very expensive and more people will arrive by car.

For me, I’ll be about an hour’s drive away if Universal get the traffic management right, so the opening of the park will satisfy a life-long desire to live close enough to a world class theme park which I can take easy day trips to, or even just pop along for the evening. I’ll therefore be arriving by car each time

 

[Altonsky]

Non-scientifically (i.e. just my opinion) I'd expect a large majority of people to come by car, unless the parking charge is huge and people are coming in small enough groups that the train fee is cheaper than the parking charge. A lot of the visitors will be domestic and we're all used to driving rather than catching the train because the trains in the UK are so expensive (and sometimes unreliable).

Of course they could encourage people to come by train if they wanted to, through discount ticket offers if you show a rail ticket (lots of UK attractions do this already in an attempt to be greener) but I don't know if they'd want to impact on their ticket income like that.

I read a rumour on a rail forum the other day that apparently universal have struck a deal with the government to offer discounted train tickets which would make sense. Instead of offering discounted park tickets that hit their bottom line.

We’ll be waiting a while to find out if that’s true.

I’d love the Eurostar thing to the true, but domestically I think incorporating it into HS2 should be our main concern as that would open it up to far more people throughout the country.

 

[Steeb]

I haven't gotten around to listening to it yet, but BBC Radio had a show called Front Row discussing the park from an entertainment side of things

Front Row - Universal Theme Park, Olivier award-winning play Giant, Two to One - BBC Sounds

Mark Rosenblatt talks about his Olivier award-winning play about Roald Dahl, Giant.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[GAcoaster]

I read a rumour on a rail forum the other day that apparently universal have struck a deal with the government to offer discounted train tickets which would make sense. Instead of offering discounted park tickets that hit their bottom line.

We’ll be waiting a while to find out if that’s true.

I’d love the Eurostar thing to the true, but domestically I think incorporating it into HS2 should be our main concern as that would open it up to far more people throughout the country.

Selling packages with park tickets and train fare bundled at a discount makes sense— many parks in the US do this with local transit companies.