Universal Orlando Resort Expansion (Part 1)

[Nick]

If I'm paying $95 to go into the park, there's no way I could have a great time without riding ANYTHING... maybe an okay/fun time, but certainly nothing to write home about. Maybe when I'm over 65, I'll change my mind but as a young whippersnapper, I have to ride at least a couple things before I'd pay those crazy prices to get in. Hall of Presidents, Tiki Room, Country Bears, Philharmagic, Carousel of Progress, Laugh Floor and Stitch's Great Escape - not sure if I'd call that a day worth the price of admission

Universal does need more shows, but really mid level (C and D ticket) attractions are what IOA and USF. Each is going to have 9-10 big boy rides once Kong opens. Add in any future major additions and each park will be stacked in that regard. Smaller scale attractions to flesh out the park would be great :thumbs:

You tend to look at the parks differently when you hold an annual Pass. I can easily spend a day walking around world showcase or just bring my laptop out and find a nice spot to do school work in the park.

And to be honest, those show/attractions you listed are what Uni needs more of. I could go to MK and go on nothing but CoP and ride the TTA and be happy. And i'm still a fairly young "whippersnapper" too. I just don't run from ride to ride. I suppose part of that is because i've been coming here (and now living here) for 16 years. Visiting so frequently, I just see the need to always have to ride something.

 

[Nick]

Especially since Disney very well might start plans for a 5th gate near the 50th.

Not happening. They have two parks that are still half day parks and Epcot is a mess. They have enough on there plate at the moment.

I'm not even sure the market would be able to handle a 5th WDW park and a 3rd Uni park. Disney most certainly would have nothing to gain and Universal wouldn't gain either. Vacations aren't getting any longer, so 8 parks (not even counting Sea World), plus 3 Water parks and people are going to end up condensing things A LOT. WDW would still get the majority of the vacation, with park hopping being huge in making it happen.

In this hypothetical-never-happening-situation where Uni and WDW are both adding new parks, Uni would still only keep guests onsite about the same amount of days because of a new WDW park. IOA/USF could probably be done in one day with Express and then a second day at said third park and maybe back over to IOA or Uni.

That just doesn't sound fun to me for one thing. To much rushing to get everything in and people still would miss things, potentially WonderSea.

The market simply can't sustain that kind of growth and WDW shouldn't even be thinking about building another park for a LONG, LONG time, if ever in Orlando. They have a lot of work to do on current parks.

 

[mahnamahna]

You tend to look at the parks differently when you hold an annual Pass. I can easily spend a day walking around world showcase or just bring my laptop out and find a nice spot to do school work in the park.

And to be honest, those show/attractions you listed are what Uni needs more of. I could go to MK and go on nothing but CoP and ride the TTA and be happy. And i'm still a fairly young "whippersnapper" too. I just don't run from ride to ride. I suppose part of that is because i've been coming here (and now living here) for 16 years. Visiting so frequently, I just see the need to always have to ride something.

I was just pointing out how just those shows aren't worth $100 admission... I don't curtail from ride to ride myself but at those prices, I would have to ride a few favorites, similar to what Universal pass holders do already. And I mentioned in a later post that smaller scale additions are what Uni could use more of.

And most people aren't doing school work at the parks.. although generally I'm not looking for them, either so I could be wrong

I have had an AP to Universal before (Disney isn't worth the price with how little they add for adults) and I do get that both are 3/4 day parks right now (if you take your time and don't book it), but thankfully, each is prepping to increase park capacity slightly, and round themselves out.

 

[Nick]

And most people aren't doing school work at the parks.. although generally I'm not looking for them, either so I could be wrong

Most people that come to the parks are tourists

You'd be surprised how many people come to the parks (Epcot specifically) to work or just do school work. I know a lot of CM friends who do it all the time.

 

[mahnamahna]

Not happening. They have two parks that are still half day parks and Epcot is a mess. They have enough on there plate at the moment.

I'm not even sure the market would be able to handle a 5th WDW park and a 3rd Uni park. Disney most certainly would have nothing to gain and Universal wouldn't gain either. Vacations aren't getting any longer, so 8 parks (not even counting Sea World), plus 3 Water parks and people are going to end up condensing things A LOT. WDW would still get the majority of the vacation, with park hopping being huge in making it happen.

In this hypothetical-never-happening-situation where Uni and WDW are both adding new parks, Uni would still only keep guests onsite about the same amount of days because of a new WDW park. IOA/USF could probably be done in one day with Express and then a second day at said third park and maybe back over to IOA or Uni.

That just doesn't sound fun to me for one thing. To much rushing to get everything in and people still would miss things, potentially WonderSea.

The market simply can't sustain that kind of growth and WDW shouldn't even be thinking about building another park for a LONG, LONG time, if ever in Orlando. They have a lot of work to do on current parks.

You gotta remember that TDO doesn't think rationally though I agree that they shouldn't... but the execs have made some foolish decisions with WDW over the last 20 years.

They'd definitely be better off reworking MK to allow expansion into backstage, fix up Epcot, just redo DHS and round out AK.

Although the average tourist on vacation is probably going to want to ride/do everything, so maybe a day for each park by the end of the decade.

 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

Not happening. They have two parks that are still half day parks and Epcot is a mess. They have enough on there plate at the moment.

I'm not even sure the market would be able to handle a 5th WDW park and a 3rd Uni park. Disney most certainly would have nothing to gain and Universal wouldn't gain either. Vacations aren't getting any longer, so 8 parks (not even counting Sea World), plus 3 Water parks and people are going to end up condensing things A LOT. WDW would still get the majority of the vacation, with park hopping being huge in making it happen.

In this hypothetical-never-happening-situation where Uni and WDW are both adding new parks, Uni would still only keep guests onsite about the same amount of days because of a new WDW park. IOA/USF could probably be done in one day with Express and then a second day at said third park and maybe back over to IOA or Uni.

That just doesn't sound fun to me for one thing. To much rushing to get everything in and people still would miss things, potentially WonderSea.

The market simply can't sustain that kind of growth and WDW shouldn't even be thinking about building another park for a LONG, LONG time, if ever in Orlando. They have a lot of work to do on current parks.

I agree. We are not seeing Universal get another theme park. Or Disney World.

 

[Jon84]

I am enjoying Resort Ownership game here

All this talk of the market can/cannot sustain any more parks can only be validated with hardcore MI , market research, and business plans, non of which any resort has made available as far as I know.

I am sure that TDO and ComCast will be holding annual reviews of their businesses and the current market. They'll see where trends are heading in the future based on data warehouses of historic data.

Nothing is ever decided upon based on a finger in the air estimate, not with multi billion dollar businesses. They'll have to please their local government as well as shareholders too.

 

[Nick]

I am enjoying Resort Ownership game here

All this talk of the market can/cannot sustain any more parks can only be validated with hardcore MI , market research, and business plans, non of which any resort has made available as far as I know.

I am sure that TDO and ComCast will be holding annual reviews of their businesses and the current market. They'll see where trends are heading in the future based on data warehouses of historic data.

Nothing is ever decided upon based on a finger in the air estimate, not with multi billion dollar businesses. They'll have to please their local government as well as shareholders too.

Oh I understand that, but just looking at it logically, it doesn't seem possible to sustain TWO new parks in the same area. As has been said, Uni's current parks aren't even at capacity yet.

That's not really even my point in why it' not sustainable though. If a family takes a 7 day vacation to Orlando, fitting everything in is impossible, meaning they have to pick and choose. With 8 parks and 3 water parks between WDW and Uni (9 and 4 if you count Sea World), it'd be bad for both resorts.

I'm not saying a third Uni park in't going to happen. I definitely think we'll see one eventually, but it's far off still.

I'm not sure any of us will live to see a 5th WDW park though.

 

[Jon84]

Oh I understand that, but just looking at it logically, it doesn't seem possible to sustain TWO new parks in the same area. As has been said, Uni's current parks aren't even at capacity yet.

That's not really even my point in why it' not sustainable though. If a family takes a 7 day vacation to Orlando, fitting everything in is impossible, meaning they have to pick and choose. With 8 parks and 3 water parks between WDW and Uni (9 and 4 if you count Sea World), it'd be bad for both resorts.

I'm not saying a third Uni park in't going to happen. I definitely think we'll see one eventually, but it's far off still.

I'm not sure any of us will live to see a 5th WDW park though.

We probabaly won't live to see it!

It would be interesting to see capacity figures when both DHS and IOA was first announced.

We normally take vacations in FL for 2 weeks, but that is really just to make the most of the cost of the flights. For us it is possible to do all the existing parks (WDW, UOR and Seaworld, plus KSC and BGT) with rest days, in 2 weeks. Another 2 parks would be do able in 2 vacation I think

 

[shiekra38]

I'm not sure any of us will live to see a 5th WDW park though.

No probably not...HS and AK need to be full day parks first and then we'll talk 5th gate..Universal has the same issue with IOA, it is a half day park if you do not do the water rides..Studios is somewhat the same, although with Diagon this will change a bit..both need more and must be busting at the seams before we will get a 3rd gate..

 

[mahnamahna]

No probably not...HS and AK need to be full day parks first and then we'll talk 5th gate..Universal has the same issue with IOA, it is a half day park if you do not do the water rides..Studios is somewhat the same, although with Diagon this will change a bit..both need more and must be busting at the seams before we will get a 3rd gate..

USF is pretty much full day - if you do everything except the three/four kiddie attractions. IOA is closer to 3/4 day when its warm, and half day during the winter. A few dry attractions in the Toon/JP area along with Kong would help a lot. But if you're taking it easy, the parks are closer to full day than DHS or AK

 

[UK-Trigg]

Lot of chatter about Uni ad a 3rd gate with quite a few poo pooing the idea as "not happening".

That very fact that Why Lightbulb suggested a highly themed park to the level of potter would suggest to me that talks and meetings have been going on at Uni at an elevated state for a while. Granted a lot of things have to come together for this to happen but the money Uni must be making, and will make over the coming years makes a 3rd gate, in my opinion, highly likely. If all the planned expansions go to plan and pull in the numbers and money the are expecting I see no reason not to do it.

All the expansion we are seeing now is gearing up to it, what with hotels, waterpark, restaurants and attractions. I know no more than the next man but like I said earlier I really do see this happening in the coming years.

 

[Disneyhead]

I think that Uni realizes that an IP like Potter is a once in a lifetime get. They have a cash flow window right now that will cool eventually. Now is the time to make their move based solely on their situation.

The fact Disney has gotten fat and lazy is just icing on the cake.

 

[UK-Trigg]

I think that Uni realizes that an IP like Potter is a once in a lifetime get. They have a cash flow window right now that will cool eventually. Now is the time to make their move based solely on their situation.

The fact Disney has gotten fat and lazy is just icing on the cake.

Couldn't agree more,

 

[kingcooger]

Lot of chatter about Uni ad a 3rd gate with quite a few poo pooing the idea as "not happening".

That very fact that Why Lightbulb suggested a highly themed park to the level of potter would suggest to me that talks and meetings have been going on at Uni at an elevated state for a while. Granted a lot of things have to come together for this to happen but the money Uni must be making, and will make over the coming years makes a 3rd gate, in my opinion, highly likely. If all the planned expansions go to plan and pull in the numbers and money the are expecting I see no reason not to do it.

All the expansion we are seeing now is gearing up to it, what with hotels, waterpark, restaurants and attractions. I know no more than the next man but like I said earlier I really do see this happening in the coming years.

I think that Uni realizes that an IP like Potter is a once in a lifetime get. They have a cash flow window right now that will cool eventually. Now is the time to make their move based solely on their situation.

The fact Disney has gotten fat and lazy is just icing on the cake.

Given the way Uni and Disney have been battling over press releases, what do you want to bet Uni announces it is building a new park around the time that Avatarland is opening?

 

[natespf]

There have been a lot of good points brought up in this thread. It it is moving so fast it is hard to keep up, with the posts anyways.

I did want to add that USF and IoA wouldn't need to have capacity problems before they start with a 3rd gate. Though we will need to wait till it is a safe bet, and they have good reason to believe 3 parks would net more profit than 2 parks. That is still make a bigger profit with the costs of running another park factored in.

It will also take quite some time to compile the land before they can even start building a park on it. So they can't wait till another park is necessary before they start coming up with plans.

 

[TylerDurden]

I think that Uni realizes that an IP like Potter is a once in a lifetime get. They have a cash flow window right now that will cool eventually. Now is the time to make their move based solely on their situation.

The fact Disney has gotten fat and lazy is just icing on the cake.

This is a good point, but it works both ways. Yes, they should take full advantage of their enormous revenue stream while its flowing strong...but at the same time, like you said, this kind of revenue generation is probably once-in-a-lifetime...is it possible they wear themselves too thin? Because while certain additions in the short-term are pretty much guaranteed to get paid off with Potter money, a full third theme park will take many, many years to pay off, and will have to rely on much more than Potter money. Thats the problem I see. Universal has proven they do one particular IP with a huge built-in fanbase very, very right. But they have yet to take a huge risk that will make or break them, and prove they can pull in the right amount of people/money without Harry Potter attached. In 10 years, where will they be? We have only seen short-term effects so far.

- - - Updated - - -

Lot of chatter about Uni ad a 3rd gate with quite a few poo pooing the idea as "not happening".

That very fact that Why Lightbulb suggested a highly themed park to the level of potter would suggest to me that talks and meetings have been going on at Uni at an elevated state for a while. Granted a lot of things have to come together for this to happen but the money Uni must be making, and will make over the coming years makes a 3rd gate, in my opinion, highly likely. If all the planned expansions go to plan and pull in the numbers and money the are expecting I see no reason not to do it.

All the expansion we are seeing now is gearing up to it, what with hotels, waterpark, restaurants and attractions. I know no more than the next man but like I said earlier I really do see this happening in the coming years.

WestCOT, Mineral King, Cartoon World, that Egyptian hotel Universal was gonna add...those all had meetings too. Projects not making it past blue sky is very common, probably more common than seeing projects go through to completion. I hate to say it but at this point that doesnt mean much.

 

[DufflesMcGee]

well, I think a great way to look at when we could expect to see a 3rd gate is by answering the question; by when would universal have renovated its parks to a point where expansions can only be seen on a different area.

USO - MIB/FFL and mystery plot, Kidzone and disaster is a definite must, everything else, including twister and shrek, are arguable becasue they are in the end shows and people eaters, something every world class theme park needs. However, where it becomes interesting is the backstages that are being used and what mught happen to them. For example, I was just looking at google maps realized that maybe if they were to do the MoM for harry potter phase 3, it is possible that it will not be FFL currently resides... instead it is possible that maybe it goes behind DA and becomes an extension of that area and it is where the current employee parking lot is. That is land that can be used if they decide to build a second employee garage. we must also consider that many of the sound stages that are used for props and constumes might be centralized into one building, giving UC more space to work with.

IAO - not really any sound stages to work with like USO, but we definitely expect to see something happen to LC, Suess, and JP. TL is still questionable and I believe that if LOTR were to come, keep it for the third park.

Hotels - 2 new towers at cabana, 1 new hotel on the plot between RPR and CBBR, plus a convention center.

But even before all of this is complete, Universal still needs to acquire the land for the new hotels and park, if they havent already, get permits,clear out the land (if they are doing kirkman they must deconstruct), piping, add new roads, etc....

I will say at the rate we see Uni moving we will hear an announcement in 2017. And I also believe that when the new park is built, they will still have room for some updates and expansion at the current parks so that they can keep it fresh for years to come and draw guest park to those parks as well.

 

[TylerDurden]

^thats a good point as well about current expansion. Disney World spread itself too thin, and have almost hit diminishing returns. There comes a point when you just have too much going on. Universal doesnt want to be those guys. They have the resources to improve their current parks and expand there, and THEN see if it would be financially beneficial to expand.

I mean what resorts have more than 2 parks? WDW and....thats it. Is Universal really at the level where they become the second-largest theme park resort in the entire world? Im not being negative, and I would love for more expansion to come in terms of another park, but do we really think it makes logical sense to add another park, or is this just kind of a pipe dream for fans at this point?

 

[HalfGlass]

^thats a good point as well about current expansion. Disney World spread itself too thin, and have almost hit diminishing returns. There comes a point when you just have too much going on. Universal doesnt want to be those guys. They have the resources to improve their current parks and expand there, and THEN see if it would be financially beneficial to expand.

I mean what resorts have more than 2 parks? WDW and....thats it. Is Universal really at the level where they become the second-largest theme park resort in the entire world? Im not being negative, and I would love for more expansion to come in terms of another park, but do we really think it makes logical sense to add another park, or is this just kind of a pipe dream for fans at this point?

You're right. It doesn't make logical sense AT THIS POINT. I think this is something we will definitely see announced, but not in 2017 or 2018. This is something that will be announced at the earliest 2019, maybe 2020 for a 2022 opening date. It would most likely happen after a small addition to Harry Potter, and the franchise starting to cool down. It would be perfect to announce about a year after an HP expansion because people will be so jazzed up by what Universal has accomplished that an entire new set of rides a couple years later would bring people back. Just speculation, but that makes more sense to me than no 3rd gate at all.