Avatar: The Way Of Water

[AlexanderMBush]

Spoiler

Then Kiri... she's the closest thing to a Jedi Avatar has. She's actually honestly the Jesus figure of the movie. Her birth was a mystery and she has an extremely close relationship with Eywa due to Grace and the ceremony they performed after her death i'm assuming. I think she'll be a very interesting character going forward, especially if they are allowed to do 4 & 5.

Spoiler

4 feels like a lock, especially with it partially filmed. Honestly wouldn't mind if it stopped at 4 with how this film sets up what feels to be a proper trilogy structure for the sake of the series going forward. Ditto on Kiri having a lot more of the "Jesus" angle than I think I'd even give Jake Sully credit for.

 

[OLSinFLA]

A basically reviewed it saying the first hour is catchup with Jake and family, the second hour is stop and admire the scenery (and the bratty kids) and the third hour is OMFG

 

[Nick]

A basically reviewed it saying the first hour is catchup with Jake and family, the second hour is stop and admire the scenery (and the bratty kids) and the third hour is OMFG

This is a solid description of the film in as few words as possible, especially if you are trying to describe it to someone. It can definitely seem like a "pretty scenery hour" and it was probably a bit too much of it (and for sure there's stuff they could've cut), but for me the hour worked at least for my initial viewing. I'll see if it changes moving forward in future viewings.

Speaking of the kids, they just totally won me over in that hour and I enjoyed all of the time spent with them. There was a lot of new characters in this movie and James Cameron balanced them beautifully and made sure you got to know them and I think a lot because of the extended time we spend with them. This is something that Eternals would've greatly benefitted from was much more time spent with the individual characters given that there were so many characters in that movie.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

The way I albeit hope is what might be what is happening is something like this:

Avatar (The Way of The Forest)- The Prologue. Sets up the dynamics of Jake, Neytiri, Miles, and Grace, alongside planting the seeds of the introduction of Eywa and the Na'vi
The Way of Water - The First Chapter. The proper beginning of the story, rooted by the events and actions of the prologue. Acts as a reintroduction in this case due to the time-gap of a decade; but it also allows us to rethink characters in ways previously seen (Without going too much into spoilers)
The Way of Fire - The Penultimate Chapter. The middle of the story, with the most important decisions and choices made. Characters look to others past actions and choices, and it causes ripples to others; shifting the course of Pandora and the tribes
The Way of Life - The Finale (or, if it needs to be broken in half, to then have The Way of Death). Everything comes to a head and the future of Pandora becomes clear, it becomes to what we know as established following that of Pandora - The World of Avatar. Closes the narrative on all that has occured, while opening the door for future generations beyond what we may or may not see.

 

[Nick]

The way I albeit hope is what might be what is happening is something like this:

Avatar (The Way of The Forest)- The Prologue. Sets up the dynamics of Jake, Neytiri, Miles, and Grace, alongside planting the seeds of the introduction of Eywa and the Na'vi
The Way of Water - The First Chapter. The proper beginning of the story, rooted by the events and actions of the prologue. Acts as a reintroduction in this case due to the time-gap of a decade; but it also allows us to rethink characters in ways previously seen (Without going too much into spoilers)
The Way of Fire - The Penultimate Chapter. The middle of the story, with the most important decisions and choices made. Characters look to others past actions and choices, and it causes ripples to others; shifting the course of Pandora and the tribes
The Way of Life - The Finale (or, if it needs to be broken in half, to then have The Way of Death). Everything comes to a head and the future of Pandora becomes clear, it becomes to what we know as established following that of Pandora - The World of Avatar. Closes the narrative on all that has occured, while opening the door for future generations beyond what we may or may not see.

Well, if you want to know the James Cameron acknowledged names for the sequels. The article below is from 2018 and had the correct Avatar 2 name in it. They were copyrighted back in 2018, although Cameron says there are alternate titles as well.

I'll put the names in spoilers just in case...
3 - The Seed Bearer
4 - The Tulkan Rider
5 - The Quest For Eywa

Avatar Sequels Titles Revealed

James Cameron’s return to Pandora has a new name.

www.denofgeek.com

.

 

[Lucky Planet]

Some people on Reddit said that a lot of theaters are kinda empty? Not a lot of people watching in some cities or something
How is it doing?

 

[Nick]

Some people on Reddit said that a lot of theaters are kinda empty? Not a lot of people watching in some cities or something
How is it doing?

On pace for a $130-$150M opening domestically. Aside from run time (which isn't too big of a factor), the huge lack of 3D and PLF (Premium Large Format) screens in the US is an issue with this film. Only about 35% of the screens in the US are able to do 3D showings and most people are wanting to see this movie in 3D, if not 3D PLF screens. 2D showings are going to be emptier as there's less demand with this movie to see it in 2D.

For example, on Thursday's showings, 61% of the business came from 3D showings with 32% of that being from PLF screens and 29% from regular 3D. Supposedly the advance ticket sales are very strong during the week and weeks to come as people are waiting to see this in the larger formats and specific theater that they want to see it in. If it will get the repeat business that the first film saw though is the big question. This will still be a marathon and not a sprint, as films always are at this time of the year. This is the only major film to open until Ant-Man 3 on February 17th so it has a long runway much like No Way Home did if it proves to be popular with repeat business.

I do think it is important to note that Avatar was never going to play like a Marvel film, at least if it is to be successful. $130-$150M is a great opening (although maybe not exactly what was hoped it could reach), but the difference is Marvel has a huge fan community that is spoiler averse. I don't think there was nearly as big of worry about seeing this movie as quick as possible so as not to get spoiled. The film is doing well overseas currently. Many aren't willing to give a figure for what they even expect out of the worldwide opening this weekend because China is a bit of a fickle market at the moment due to their zero-covid policy just lifting and many people living there still having concerns about returning to theaters, but I think it'll be around $450-$500M.

If you want to see a good breakdown (and where I pulled my numbers and facts from) here's a good article:

Weekend Report: Avatar: The Way of Water Earns $53M Domestic First Day, Pacing for $130M+ Frame; Global Total at $180.1M through Friday - Boxoffice

Saturday Update: Disney reports Avatar: The Way of Water posted a $53 million opening day domestically, including Thursday's $17 million previews.

www.boxofficepro.com

 

[Nick]

The Way of Water opened to $134M Domestically and roughly $300M Internationally to a $434M Worldwide opening. This is coming in a bit below the original hopes of opening between $150-$175M, however there are positive signs going forward. The ultimate fate of this movie's either success or failure will be determined in the weeks ahead due to the holiday period, lack of competition, but also some very positive things that came out of the weekend. Worldwide i'd say I still feel pretty positive about around $1.5B or so at least which is Top Gun numbers, although I do believe the WW totals for the debut are ahead of what Top Gun put up so I wouldn't be surprised if it pushes a bit above that, possibly even to $2B. It's really tough to gauge right now.

The movie only saw a -16% drop between Friday and Saturday's box office, which is the lowest for a tentpole film ever to open in December. That is a good sign that it could see some legs to it much in a Top Gun: Maverick way. For evidence of this, 20% of pre-sales are booked for beyond this weekend vs. a standard Marvel release which usually sees 5% pre-sales past the first weekend. According to the article below, "each day from Monday through New Year's weekend, is like a Saturday at the box office". Also, 62% of people saw the movie in 3D.

We'll see where it goes from here as it should be interesting to follow this and see if The Way Of Water can achieve similar legs to the original Avatar or to those of Top Gun: Maverick or if it will be Cameron's first commercial flop. One thing that is a bit different this time around and could play a factor is that in late 2009/early 2010, we were coming out of a recession. Currently, we seem to be on track to head into one.

‘Avatar: The Way Of Water’ Opens To $134M; Why Pic’s Box Office Fate Will Be Determined Through The Holidays – Sunday AM Update

'Avatar: The Way of Water' Seeing $55M Friday, $150M Opening Weekend

deadline.com

 

[belloq87]

Yeah, I don't think any pronouncements should (or can) be made about the movie's success until after New Year's weekend.

 

[OLSinFLA]

Some people on Reddit said that a lot of theaters are kinda empty? Not a lot of people watching in some cities or something
How is it doing?

I know in Orlando you can find seats at 2D and non premium houses (Premium have seats if you don't mind front row). But it also has 125 showtimes every day this week!

 

[Nick]

Random, but absolutely BONKERS stat: 100% of the $57.1M TWOW made in China this weekend was from 3D showings. I'm guessing they must just not be showing it in 2D there or else I can't fathom how that would be possible.

I know in Orlando you can find seats at 2D and non premium houses (Premium have seats if you don't mind front row). But it also has 125 showtimes every day this week!

I'm personally waiting until after Christmas to see it again, possibly later. Most of that is just because it's a busy time of year, but even if I wanted to go now, i've looked and getting a good seat in IMAX for my party size is pretty tough.

 

[OrlandoGuy]

Saw this in Dolby 3D over the weekend. The entire three hours I was watching it, I was incredibly entertained. Never checked my watch, fought off the urge to go to the bathroom (for as long as I could anyway) and felt all the emotional beats Cameron wanted me to feel (which was surprising to me given how apathetic I was to these characters back in 2009).

Now that I’ve left the theater I find myself less impressed with it. This really is a theme park ride—it’s an incredible visual experience by a master of his craft but the narrative weaknesses keep this from being a good “film.”

A few things that stood out in particular: the haziness of the antagonists’ motivation (the entire military funded a singlehanded revenge plot 15 years old?), the refusal to do anything interesting with Spider as a character (despite the nuggets being there) and the decisions of Jake being completely self-serving and idiotic. Just taking a little time to develop these major points wouldve made a huge difference in making this more than just a visceral experience. That’ll be what keeps me from seeing it again (that and the runtime).

I’ll also say I had seen mentions of high frame rate leading up to the movie but didn’t really know what it meant…the second it happened in the movie though, I thought “ah that’s what they were talking about.” It made action scenes feel like video game cut scenes—good cut scenes, to be fair, because they were directed by James Cameron. But why, in a movie meant to showcase your technical prowess, are you making a calculated decision to make your effects looks faker? I don’t think it’s an indictment on the visual effects considering high frame rate scenes with humans also looked goofy (genius to include Spider for that reason IMO), it was just odd. I didn’t hate it, but I’d lie if I said it wasn’t jarring.

I can’t really grade this as a movie. It’s a 10/10 way to spend an afternoon or evening if you’re watching on a big screen in 3-D. If I had to watch it on Disney+ without the glasses…probably a 6.

But nothing will take away how awesome that in-theater experience was. Incredible filmmaking from James Cameron at the top of his technical game.

 

[Nick]

Saw this in Dolby 3D over the weekend. The entire three hours I was watching it, I was incredibly entertained. Never checked my watch, fought off the urge to go to the bathroom (for as long as I could anyway) and felt all the emotional beats Cameron wanted me to feel (which was surprising to me given how apathetic I was to these characters back in 2009).

Now that I’ve left the theater I find myself less impressed with it. This really is a theme park ride—it’s an incredible visual experience by a master of his craft but the narrative weaknesses keep this from being a good “film.”

A few things that stood out in particular: the haziness of the antagonists’ motivation (the entire military funded a singlehanded revenge plot 15 years old?), the refusal to do anything interesting with Spider as a character (despite the nuggets being there) and the decisions of Jake being completely self-serving and idiotic. Just taking a little time to develop these major points wouldve made a huge difference in making this more than just a visceral experience. That’ll be what keeps me from seeing it again (that and the runtime).

I’ll also say I had seen mentions of high frame rate leading up to the movie but didn’t really know what it meant…the second it happened in the movie though, I thought “ah that’s what they were talking about.” It made action scenes feel like video game cut scenes—good cut scenes, to be fair, because they were directed by James Cameron. But why, in a movie meant to showcase your technical prowess, are you making a calculated decision to make your effects looks faker? I don’t think it’s an indictment on the visual effects considering high frame rate scenes with humans also looked goofy (genius to include Spider for that reason IMO), it was just odd. I didn’t hate it, but I’d lie if I said it wasn’t jarring.

I can’t really grade this as a movie. It’s a 10/10 way to spend an afternoon or evening if you’re watching on a big screen in 3-D. If I had to watch it on Disney+ without the glasses…probably a 6.

But nothing will take away how awesome that in-theater experience was. Incredible filmmaking from James Cameron at the top of his technical game.

The HFR for me was certainly jarring at first, but once my eyes adjusted, it was just there and I began to hardly notice it. Everyone is different though and something like HFR can really make you have an unpleasant experience, especially if you have motion sickness.

Spoiler

As for the motivations for coming back to Pandora, it was to set up operations for “Earth’s resettlement” as they have plans to colonize Pandora after humans have ruined earth. Quaritch does fixate on Jake though after seeing the video of himself saying that Jake is the enemy.

 

[OrlandoGuy]

The HFR for me was certainly jarring at first, but once my eyes adjusted, it was just there and I began to hardly notice it. Everyone is different though and something like HFR can really make you have an unpleasant experience, especially if you have motion sickness.

As for the motivations for coming back to Pandora, it was to set up operations for “Earth’s resettlement” as they have plans to colonize Pandora after humans have ruined earth. Quaritch does fixate on Jake though after seeing the video of himself saying that Jake is the enemy.

Yeah I didn’t have a physical aversion to the HFR, I just thought it gave everything an unnatural-looking speed/weight that made things skew slightly unrealistic-looking…it was like watching a well-directed/funded Supercharged ride to me.

As for the villains…

Spoiler

So the goal was to resettle…chasing Jake does nothing to accomplish that goal. I get that this ONE guy is all in on getting his revenge and that’s fine, where they lost me was asking me to believe the General gifted him a whole crew, arsenal of weapons, and fleet of equipment to accomplish this goal (in exchange for “a scalp”…what does the General care if she gets this random person’s scalp or not?).

But also, if the villains were looking to resettle, wouldn’t leaving Jake alone actually be in their BEST interest? The mole is gone, he went into hiding…you can mine whatever you want now with presumably little to no resistance. Which, incidentally, also makes Jake’s decision to hide pretty backwards and anti heroic.

Somewhere in here is a movie where Quaritch goes on his own insane megalomaniacal chase ALONE with Spider, and uses that time to manipulate Spider, exploiting his feelings of isolation as the only one of his kind and the feelings of rejection he gets from Jake’s wife to turn him into a redeemable bad guy.

We got great action scenes out of it so I can’t complain too much…but that’s ^ what I mean by hazy motivation.

 

[Nick]

Yeah I didn’t have a physical aversion to the HFR, I just thought it gave everything an unnatural-looking speed/weight that made things skew slightly unrealistic-looking…it was like watching a well-directed/funded Supercharged ride to me.

As for the villains…

Spoiler

So the goal was to resettle…chasing Jake does nothing to accomplish that goal. I get that this ONE guy is all in on getting his revenge and that’s fine, where they lost me was asking me to believe the General gifted him a whole crew, arsenal of weapons, and fleet of equipment to accomplish this goal (in exchange for “a scalp”…what does the General care if she gets this random person’s scalp or not?).

But also, if the villains were looking to resettle, wouldn’t leaving Jake alone actually be in their BEST interest? The mole is gone, he went into hiding…you can mine whatever you want now with presumably little to no resistance. Which, incidentally, also makes Jake’s decision to hide pretty backwards and anti heroic.

Somewhere in here is a movie where Quaritch goes on his own insane megalomaniacal chase ALONE with Spider, and uses that time to manipulate Spider, exploiting his feelings of isolation as the only one of his kind and the feelings of rejection he gets from Jake’s wife to turn him into a redeemable bad guy.

We got great action scenes out of it so I can’t complain too much…but that’s ^ what I mean by hazy motivation.

Spoiler

You are correct, but I think the implication is because Quaritch is a clone and he sees his human self saying that he has to get Jake he basically gets distracted? This movie was a lot of set up for 3, tbh.

 

[chris.g]

I think the HFR issue is with older theaters. I saw it at my local Alamo Drafthouse in 2D with its new projection system and not once noticed the frame rate difference despite being fearful for it as many reviews were egging on it.

Also, I came out really liking this - but it helps I went in with super low expectations as I just did not think they would come close to meeting anything near the level of say Star Wars or the MCU. The world building is handled nicely as it the core foundation of the movie's premise being Jake's family and their identity crises. The world is lifelike and most of the time I was just awed at the visuals before me. Echoing what others before me have said, the story in itself is very simple, but I appreciated its straight forward narrative and anti-thesis to the "white savior" narrative compared to the first. Very engaged now as to what the rest of the series will bring.

Also very pleased a miss Edie Falco was in this - the Sopranos fan in me was super shocked at it haha.

 

[Freak]

Going to see this in the only acceptable format this wednesday: In IMAX 3D at Citywalk at USH. The only real IMAX theater in SoCal. The "IMAX" theaters at the AMCs are more like "IMEH". Since the primary appeal of the film are the visuals, I want to maximize it in the best possible way so I'm seeing it there.

Wasn't really blown away by the first film, but with people saying it's surprisingly good, I'm going to go check it out. Hope it's worth the $30 lol

 

[Nick]

Sidebar: I really hope that Avatar 1 gets a subtitle eventually, because having to call it “Avatar 1” or the “original Avatar” is a bit weird.

Going to see this in the only acceptable format this wednesday: In IMAX 3D at Citywalk at USH. The only real IMAX theater in SoCal. The "IMAX" theaters at the AMCs are more like "IMEH". Since the primary appeal of the film are the visuals, I want to maximize it in the best possible way so I'm seeing it there.

Wasn't really blown away by the first film, but with people saying it's surprisingly good, I'm going to go check it out. Hope it's worth the $30 lol

If you’re gonna see the movie, the best possible format in 3D is the way to go for this film simply because it’s the best looking film ever made imo (as far as VFX go), and the 3D is a feature, not a gimmick.

With us going into a recession though, I do wonder how many repeat viewings this will see compared to the first film since people are spending so much to see it in premium theaters and Jim is telling people they basically need to see it in those formats.

 

[OLSinFLA]

Saw this in Dolby 3D over the weekend. The entire three hours I was watching it, I was incredibly entertained. Never checked my watch, fought off the urge to go to the bathroom (for as long as I could anyway) and felt all the emotional beats Cameron wanted me to feel (which was surprising to me given how apathetic I was to these characters back in 2009).

Now that I’ve left the theater I find myself less impressed with it. This really is a theme park ride—it’s an incredible visual experience by a master of his craft but the narrative weaknesses keep this from being a good “film.”

A few things that stood out in particular: the haziness of the antagonists’ motivation (the entire military funded a singlehanded revenge plot 15 years old?), the refusal to do anything interesting with Spider as a character (despite the nuggets being there) and the decisions of Jake being completely self-serving and idiotic. Just taking a little time to develop these major points wouldve made a huge difference in making this more than just a visceral experience. That’ll be what keeps me from seeing it again (that and the runtime).

I’ll also say I had seen mentions of high frame rate leading up to the movie but didn’t really know what it meant…the second it happened in the movie though, I thought “ah that’s what they were talking about.” It made action scenes feel like video game cut scenes—good cut scenes, to be fair, because they were directed by James Cameron. But why, in a movie meant to showcase your technical prowess, are you making a calculated decision to make your effects looks faker? I don’t think it’s an indictment on the visual effects considering high frame rate scenes with humans also looked goofy (genius to include Spider for that reason IMO), it was just odd. I didn’t hate it, but I’d lie if I said it wasn’t jarring.

I can’t really grade this as a movie. It’s a 10/10 way to spend an afternoon or evening if you’re watching on a big screen in 3-D. If I had to watch it on Disney+ without the glasses…probably a 6.

But nothing will take away how awesome that in-theater experience was. Incredible filmmaking from James Cameron at the top of his technical game.

I think the issue with HFR is its combined with digital "film" and projection. HFR has been around before digital (I saw Showscan once - 70mm at 70fps) and it didn't look like that (But it did fool my brain into experiencing non-existant motion). The original "Soaring'" was IMAX at 48fps. "Oklahoma!" and "80 Days" were shot in 30fps Todd-AO. The two all-digital HFR theme park attractions - "Reign of Kong" and "Flight of Passage" do look hyper real - but then they are supposed to. I think the lack of film grain is what makes it look weird nowdays.

Yeah I didn’t have a physical aversion to the HFR, I just thought it gave everything an unnatural-looking speed/weight that made things skew slightly unrealistic-looking…it was like watching a well-directed/funded Supercharged ride to me.

As for the villains…

Spoiler

So the goal was to resettle…chasing Jake does nothing to accomplish that goal. I get that this ONE guy is all in on getting his revenge and that’s fine, where they lost me was asking me to believe the General gifted him a whole crew, arsenal of weapons, and fleet of equipment to accomplish this goal (in exchange for “a scalp”…what does the General care if she gets this random person’s scalp or not?).

But also, if the villains were looking to resettle, wouldn’t leaving Jake alone actually be in their BEST interest? The mole is gone, he went into hiding…you can mine whatever you want now with presumably little to no resistance. Which, incidentally, also makes Jake’s decision to hide pretty backwards and anti heroic.

Somewhere in here is a movie where Quaritch goes on his own insane megalomaniacal chase ALONE with Spider, and uses that time to manipulate Spider, exploiting his feelings of isolation as the only one of his kind and the feelings of rejection he gets from Jake’s wife to turn him into a redeemable bad guy.

We got great action scenes out of it so I can’t complain too much…but that’s ^ what I mean by hazy motivation.

Jake was the tribe leader and as such, a prime target.

I think the HFR issue is with older theaters. I saw it at my local Alamo Drafthouse in 2D with its new projection system and not once noticed the frame rate difference despite being fearful for it as many reviews were egging on it.

Also, I came out really liking this - but it helps I went in with super low expectations as I just did not think they would come close to meeting anything near the level of say Star Wars or the MCU. The world building is handled nicely as it the core foundation of the movie's premise being Jake's family and their identity crises. The world is lifelike and most of the time I was just awed at the visuals before me. Echoing what others before me have said, the story in itself is very simple, but I appreciated its straight forward narrative and anti-thesis to the "white savior" narrative compared to the first. Very engaged now as to what the rest of the series will bring.

Also very pleased a miss Edie Falco was in this - the Sopranos fan in me was super shocked at it haha.

They might not have been showing HFR. Some of the older theater systems cannot do 48fps except as repeating the same frame.

 

[Nick]

@OLSinFLA - I had to merge all three of those posts together so make sure that you use the "quote" button on each post that you want to respond to and then you'll be able to insert all of the posts into the box to reply to them all at once instead of in multiple posts. It helps keeps the forums clean.

Jake was the tribe leader and as such, a prime target.

True, but...

Spoiler

Quaritch only wanted him out of the Pandoran forests. He essentially forced Jake and his family out as it was no longer safe for his family or the Omaticaya clan for them to stay.

The forests is where the RDA were planning to build the city where regular citizens from earth who come there will live. This seems like a take on how the billionaire class is profiting off of going to space now and how they would love to colonize Mars down the line if possible.

On another note... I got to thinking about how they could possibly make a D+ show out of this franchise. You know Disney would want to if it was truly feasible, but to have it live up to the movie standards as far as CGI would be highly expensive. Then I thought about what if they did something like Andor/Rogue One and did a prequel set on earth? They could have it centered around Jake's brother before he died and the RDA as they were getting ready to head up the Avatar project in Pandora. Of course, Jakes brother would just be Sam Worthington again as they were twins, but I suppose they could de-age him and make it work. Not sure how good that would be but honestly something on earth is really the only chance of happening with this franchise on D+.