Hawkeye (Disney+)

[pumpkinbot343]

Spoiler

Netflix Kingpin.

Interesting; I don’t think the MCU until this point really addressed the Netflix canon AFAIK.

 

[Nick]

Interesting; I don’t think the MCU until this point really addressed the Netflix canon AFAIK.

Netflix shows are not canon. If they were, Cottonmouth wouldn’t be Blade, too.

Spoiler

If rumors are to be believed, Charlie Cox is coming back as Matt Murdock in No Way Home, so we’re diving into those characters. I’ve also heard they have interest in bringing back Krysten Ritter’s Jessica Jones.

I believe these are set to technically be new versions of the characters though, only being brought back because fans loved their performances in the Netflix shows.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Spoiler: Echo and the voice

Echo has a cool back story...but I feel like the character in this is just generic bad.

Like I'm pissed at Ronan for killing my dad...who was in the mob but yeah Ronan should die.
I'm sure in her show she will be great because it will be and her uncle spitting up but for now she is kinda just a means to an end. But think flash backs for her will be cool

As for Kingpin.....like I almost want this show to fail with the BS they are doing with him...confirm it or not. We both all know its him and if its not it will just piss fans off. So what they are doing now is just boring, would have been great to see him back but no have to wait because....umm i dont know budget or something stupid

 

[Jerroddragon]

I know its only a youtube Poll but on Disney Plus' Youtube Hawkeye was voted the most anticipated show for December, more than doubting Boba Fett

Considering Hawkeyes numbers I don't know if their is just a huge discount with fans and normal people or if Fett is going to do far worst than I thought it would

 

[Nick]

I know its only a youtube Poll but on Disney Plus' Youtube Hawkeye was voted the most anticipated show for December, more than doubting Boba Fett

Considering Hawkeyes numbers I don't know if their is just a huge discount with fans and normal people or if Fett is going to do far worst than I thought it would

Dude it’s not like their numbers are terrible. It’s still the #1 show in the world. In fact, Hawkeye took the fastest amount of time (5 days) to claim the title of most watched show in the world.

Also, the show debuted around a holiday period where most peoples attention was probably all over the place between making a Thanksgiving Dinner and doing Black Friday shopping. None of the other MCU shows have competed for attention on such a large holiday.

For comparison, The 1.5M premiere is only 100K behind WandaVision, but it’s also 400K AHEAD of The Mandalorian Season 2 Finale numbers, which came in at 1.1 from the same tracking system (Samba TV).

So stop with the doom and gloom posts about this show. If you don’t like it, don’t watch, but I think almost universally most really enjoyed Episode 3 and the Kingpin tease was effective. The episode also featured probably of the most cinematic scenes in all of the MCU shows in that car chase (only next to the opening of FatWS and the Finale of WandaVision).

 

[Jerroddragon]

Dude it’s not like their numbers are terrible. It’s still the #1 show in the world. In fact, Hawkeye took the fastest amount of time (5 days) to claim the title of most watched show in the world.

Also, the show debuted around a holiday period where most peoples attention was probably all over the place between making a Thanksgiving Dinner and doing Black Friday shopping. None of the other MCU shows have competed for attention on such a large holiday.

For comparison, The 1.5M premiere is only 100K behind WandaVision, but it’s also 400K AHEAD of The Mandalorian Season 2 Finale numbers, which came in at 1.1 from the same tracking system (Samba TV).

So stop with the doom and gloom posts about this show. If you don’t like it, don’t watch, but I think almost universally most really enjoyed Episode 3 and the Kingpin tease was effective. The episode also featured probably of the most cinematic scenes in all of the MCU shows in that car chase (only next to the opening of FatWS and the Finale of WandaVision).

Not doom and gloom, we had someone said this show was the lowest of all MCU shows.

Just bringing it up because its interesting it was lower but many people seem hyped about it and even said I was wondering it their was a discount between fans and the general audience

But with more people having Disney Plus now then a year ago, im sure Disney wants each show to grow numbers and also shows to bring new people in. Cool its number one, I don't hate the show but definitely think its a show they can learn from what gets people more invested .

 

[Nick]

Not doom and gloom, we had someone said this show was the lowest of all MCU shows.

Yeah, that someone was me. I posted it for reference/discussion, but you have posted about it without reply about 2-3 times. There’s no discussion at this point, just you going on.

There is something to be said about the other three shows debuting during a typically slower time of the year and also that the country isn’t in shut down mode for the most part anymore. For context, when Loki debuted, Disneyland had only been reopened for 5 weeks. People are getting out of their houses again and are also back in the workforce at a much higher rate, meaning less time for all the streaming they’ve done the past year.

Id also say Disney+ hasn’t don’t the best job at convincing many MCU fans who have seen every movie that they need to watch these shows. For instance, in a friend group of 6 (including me) who have seen every MCU movie since we met starting with Thor: Ragnorok in theaters. But of the 7 of us, only two of us watch the D+ shows.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Yeah, that someone was me. I posted it for reference/discussion, but you have posted about it without reply about 2-3 times. There’s no discussion at this point, just you going on.

There is something to be said about the other three shows debuting during a typically slower time of the year and also that the country isn’t in shut down mode for the most part anymore. For context, when Loki debuted, Disneyland had only been reopened for 5 weeks. People are getting out of their houses again and are also back in the workforce at a much higher rate, meaning less time for all the streaming they’ve done the past year.

Id also say Disney+ hasn’t don’t the best job at convincing many MCU fans who have seen every movie that they need to watch these shows. For instance, in a friend group of 6 (including me) who have seen every MCU movie since we met starting with Thor: Ragnorok in theaters. But of the 7 of us, only two of us watch the D+ shows.

For now they have that stupid messaging of "you dont need to watch the shows to enjoy the films"

Which sure, you "can" but consider BW had a teaser that lead into this show to me it seems while its what they are saying its also not the truth.

I agree Disney needs to do better with shows, I think surprises are fun butttttt think having Kingpin in this would have helped a little if advertised along with Yen advertisement. Her not being show even in the teaser for next week is just weird....like in BW it was set up she was coming but they don't want her on posters? Why?

 

[Nick]

For now they have that stupid messaging of "you dont need to watch the shows to enjoy the films"

Which sure, you "can" but consider BW had a teaser that lead into this show to me it seems while its what they are saying its also not the truth.

I agree Disney needs to do better with shows, I think surprises are fun butttttt think having Kingpin in this would have helped a little if advertised along with Yen advertisement. Her not being show even in the teaser for next week is just weird....like in BW it was set up she was coming but they don't want her on posters? Why?

Was Boba Fett or Fennec Shand teased before Mandalorian Season 2? No. Because it wasn't their show. Fett was teased before his appearance though. Still no promotion because they wanted to surprise the audience, even if viewership may have been higher if they promoted it. The show's name is Hawkeye and deservingly Kate and Clint are getting the promotion. Now of course Hawkeye isn't exactly the most popular character. The show even has a whole storyline going right now about how Clint has a "branding issue". Maya and Fisk will get heavy promotion for Echo.

Would more people have tuned in if Kingpin was promoted and actually in the whole series? Absolutely. But that would've hurt the show imo. You can't just jump straight to Kingpin. Even Daredevil didn't do that. You have to start with the goons (Tracksuit Mafia), progress to the middle man (Maya) and then that finally gets you to Kingpin. To me, that works better than just jumping straight to Kingpin as it helps show how much power he has.

These Disney+ shows are doing what the MCU has been unable to do for quite awhile. The MCU at large has gotten so large that many were feeling satisfied after Endgame and feeling like how could they follow that up. Well they are following it up by going back to their roots. They went from the the stakes being as big as they could possibly be to back to putting characters in their own worlds, which was previously impossible for them to do in movies since no one seems satisfied with a low stakes Marvel movie. Disney+ is giving them that outlet.

WandaVision had the magic end with Wanda/Vision/Agatha/Tommy/Billy/Monica.
FatWS had the military side of things with Sam/Bucky/John Walker/Rhody/Zemo/etc.
Loki gave us the TVA and the mischievous side with 2012 Loki/Renslayer/Mobius/Sylvie/Kang/Hunter B-15/Other Loki Variants
Hawkeye is giving us an entry to the street level world with Clint/Kate/Swordsman/Maya/Kingpin/Yelena.

If you take these shows for what they are aiming to do, which is to place the characters more in the world of the comics while staying in the MCU, then you will have a better time with these shows and know what to expect from them.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

Was Boba Fett or Fennec Shand teased before Mandalorian Season 2? No. Because it wasn't their show. Fett was teased before his appearance though. Still no promotion because they wanted to surprise the audience, even if viewership may have been higher if they promoted it. The show's name is Hawkeye and deservingly Kate and Clint are getting the promotion. Now of course Hawkeye isn't exactly the most popular character. The show even has a whole storyline going right now about how Clint has a "branding issue". Maya and Fisk will get heavy promotion for Echo.

Would more people have tuned in if Kingpin was promoted and actually in the whole series? Absolutely. But that would've hurt the show imo. You can't just jump straight to Kingpin. Even Daredevil didn't do that. You have to start with the goons (Tracksuit Mafia), progress to the middle man (Maya) and then that finally gets you to Kingpin. To me, that works better than just jumping straight to Kingpin as it helps show how much power he has.

These Disney+ shows are doing what the MCU has been unable to do for quite awhile. The MCU at large has gotten so large that many were feeling satisfied after Endgame and feeling like how could they follow that up. Well they are following it up by going back to their roots. They went from the the stakes being as big as they could possibly be to back to putting characters in their own worlds, which was previously impossible for them to do in movies since no one seems satisfied with a low stakes Marvel movie. Disney+ is giving them that outlet.

WandaVision had the magic end with Wanda/Vision/Agatha/Tommy/Billy/Monica.
FatWS had the military side of things with Sam/Bucky/John Walker/Rhody/Zemo/etc.
Loki gave us the TVA and the mischievous side with 2012 Loki/Renslayer/Mobius/Sylvie/Kang/Hunter B-15/Other Loki Variants
Hawkeye is giving us an entry to the street level world with Clint/Kate/Swordsman/Maya/Kingpin/Yelena.

If you take these shows for what they are aiming to do, which is to place the characters more in the world of the comics while staying in the MCU, then you will have a better time with these shows and know what to expect from them.

This feels completely on-point, especially with the major point that you raised: In that, MCU/D+, outside of What If (Which I feel is surprisingly stunted), has given us the most potential in seeing more context, substance, and beliefs, pointed to characters and stories. It's why FatWS and Hawkeye are doing wonders for me, because it deals with more proper small scale (Hawkeye even going further to that small scale) that MCU has been lacking for years. It's something that I genuinely hope continues, especially if they go into darker material for D+ content (and from the looks of it, Moon Knight is going to be that point of much darker aspects).

 

[pumpkinbot343]

For now they have that stupid messaging of "you dont need to watch the shows to enjoy the films"

Which sure, you "can" but consider BW had a teaser that lead into this show to me it seems while its what they are saying its also not the truth.

I agree Disney needs to do better with shows, I think surprises are fun butttttt think having Kingpin in this would have helped a little if advertised along with Yen advertisement. Her not being show even in the teaser for next week is just weird....like in BW it was set up she was coming but they don't want her on posters? Why?

Wait they said that? That’s stupid. Even putting aside important plot points (Wanda and Sam fully going in their roles as a real witch and Captain America, Kang the Conqueror), that would mean missing a lot of character development (Bucky especially).

And yeah I’m a bit bitter it wasn’t Yelena.

 

[Nick]

Wait they said that? That’s stupid. Even putting aside important plot points (Wanda and Sam fully going in their roles as a real witch and Captain America, Kang the Conqueror), that would mean missing a lot of character development (Bucky especially).

And yeah I’m a bit bitter it wasn’t Yelena.

It’s mostly just character development that would usually be explained in a few sentences, a few quips, whatever in a movie.

Also, the character development of Wanda, Sam, and intro of Kang especially is something that can be easily explained. We saw the origin stories. But even us D+ watchers saw almost no Kang. At the end of Endgame, Sam was handed the Cap mantle - the general audience literally can’t be confused. Wanda had the biggest change from beginning to end, but I have little doubt they will seamlessly inform the general audiences about who she has become without making it confusing.

Does it help if you watch the shows? Absolutely. Do you need to? Meh. It’ll help give backstory to something like Multiverse of Madness, and I would say WandaVision is the most necessary watch, but it’s just not fully necessary if you aren’t a hardcore fan.

Most of these are origin stories and it’s easy to have someone like Clint or even Fury say “I know someone who’d be great for this job” in a scene to introduce Kate Bishop. It’s how the MCU has introduced new characters to audiences for years.

 

[pumpkinbot343]

It’s mostly just character development that would usually be explained in a few sentences, a few quips, whatever in a movie.

Also, the character development of Wanda, Sam, and intro of Kang especially is something that can be easily explained. We saw the origin stories. But even us D+ watchers saw almost no Kang. At the end of Endgame, Sam was handed the Cap mantle - the general audience literally can’t be confused. Wanda had the biggest change from beginning to end, but I have little doubt they will seamlessly inform the general audiences about who she has become without making it confusing.

Does it help if you watch the shows? Absolutely. Do you need to? Meh. It’ll help give backstory to something like Multiverse of Madness, and I would say WandaVision is the most necessary watch, but it’s just not fully necessary if you aren’t a hardcore fan.

Most of these are origin stories and it’s easy to have someone like Clint or even Fury say “I know someone who’d be great for this job” in a scene to introduce Kate Bishop. It’s how the MCU has introduced new characters to audiences for years.

I mean yeah they technically could; but that still doesn’t make it good.

Sam is fine; he was already a fun character before he took on Steve’s mantle. And Loki is already an inferior version of his killed-by-Thanos self so there’s really nothing future MCU installments can do that would make the character better. But Bucky and Wanda? Prior to their own shows (well a duo show for the former) they were basically just static. Very little depth; not helped by the fact that Wanda caused boatloads of people to die in the aftermath of Sokovia which makes it hard to tolerate the character. The Disney+ shows were the only installments where have actual personalities.

I’ve seen people say that it’s not necessary to watch all movies of Phase One to enjoy the first Avengers; but without context the characterization of Stark, Thor, and Loki basically amounts to “arrogant jerkoff”, “cute but troubled”, and “Joker but he wants to lead an army” which is not really the case if one watched the first Iron Man/Thor movies. Really Thor was awful in the first two Avengers. It’s kinda what I feel about the whole “don’t need to watch the Disney+ shows”.

 

[Nick]

I mean yeah they technically could; but that still doesn’t make it good.

Sam is fine; he was already a fun character before he took on Steve’s mantle. And Loki is already an inferior version of his killed-by-Thanos self so there’s really nothing future MCU installments can do that would make the character better. But Bucky and Wanda? Prior to their own shows (well a duo show for the former) they were basically just static. Very little depth; not helped by the fact that Wanda caused boatloads of people to die in the aftermath of Sokovia which makes it hard to tolerate the character. The Disney+ shows were the only installments where have actual personalities.

I’ve seen people say that it’s not necessary to watch all movies of Phase One to enjoy the first Avengers; but without context the characterization of Stark, Thor, and Loki basically amounts to “arrogant jerkoff”, “cute but troubled”, and “Joker but he wants to lead an army” which is not really the case if one watched the first Iron Man/Thor movies. Really Thor was awful in the first two Avengers. It’s kinda what I feel about the whole “don’t need to watch the Disney+ shows”.

Marvel/Disney are putting out 4 theatrical films per year now. Manageable enough for most who care.

However, with each film added to the MCU, the barrier to entry gets higher and higher as we’re almost 30 films in now.

The reason they are saying that you can watch the movies and won’t feel lost if you don’t show is because the second they say the shows are mandatory viewing to understand, you lose all casual fans.

Maybe the meaning of being a casual MCU fan has changed now. If you only watch movies, but not shows, you’re more casual now. You’re real hardcore in it if you watch all D+ shows.

The shows certainly add much needed character depth/development and you will enjoy the films more if you watch the shows. But it’s not 100% necessary.

 

[Jerroddragon]

This feels completely on-point, especially with the major point that you raised: In that, MCU/D+, outside of What If (Which I feel is surprisingly stunted), has given us the most potential in seeing more context, substance, and beliefs, pointed to characters and stories. It's why FatWS and Hawkeye are doing wonders for me, because it deals with more proper small scale (Hawkeye even going further to that small scale) that MCU has been lacking for years. It's something that I genuinely hope continues, especially if they go into darker material for D+ content (and from the looks of it, Moon Knight is going to be that point of much darker aspects).

I dont mind them diving deeper into a character

Look at Winter solider and Falcon which is the normal people trying to do good. We learned alot about what makes these guys tick in one...let alone two episodes

I feel like I dont know any new into on Hawkeye or why he does what he does yet...thats my issues. If your going to do a deep dive into someone then do it and give them a villain that works with this. So far its Echo who has her own show and doesnt seem to fit him for a Villain and the track suit guys are a joke....but a bad one. If people here find them funny or cool, please speak up but I have no idea why Kingpin would let such stupid people in his organization

It's phase one of the show so their are going to be hit or misses in what is happening. Wanda while fun has too slow a build up, Falcon has a villain they could not proper show why we should care about, Loki had some pacing issues and this show is suppose to be able Hawkeye but feels waayyyyy more about Kate.

Which is cool the show should have been call Clint and Kate...but Hawkeye so far we aren't learning much about the title character and no clue if we will before it ends. I hope we do that is what I wanted

 

[Nick]

I dont mind them diving deeper into a character

Look at Winter solider and Falcon which is the normal people trying to do good. We learned alot about what makes these guys tick in one...let alone two episodes

I feel like I dont know any new into on Hawkeye or why he does what he does yet...thats my issues. If your going to do a deep dive into someone then do it and give them a villain that works with this. So far its Echo who has her own show and doesnt seem to fit him for a Villain and the track suit guys are a joke....but a bad one. If people here find them funny or cool, please speak up but I have no idea why Kingpin would let such stupid people in his organization

It's phase one of the show so their are going to be hit or misses in what is happening. Wanda while fun has too slow a build up, Falcon has a villain they could not proper show why we should care about, Loki had some pacing issues and this show is suppose to be able Hawkeye but feels waayyyyy more about Kate.

Which is cool the show should have been call Clint and Kate...but Hawkeye so far we aren't learning much about the title character and no clue if we will before it ends. I hope we do that is what I wanted

The show logo is based 100% and seemingly much of the show concept itself is based on the comic run where she co-stars, but is the series lead back in about 2012.

They are both Hawkeye. I know up to this point, we’ve only known Clint as Hawkeye, but the second this show was announced, this it the type of thing I was expected. They’re bringing in Kate to be the new Hawkeye so that they can eventually kill off Clint.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

Clint at this point, is a weird category to where he technically is two heros in one. I do agree that Kate's probably stepping in, but it'll be interesting to see how Ronin's shaped after all this. If Clint will finally "retire" it properly, and leaving Echo to have the armor, or Clint having the armor back, and perhaps by one reason or another, being empowered to fully become the Ronin properly.

There's potential for both that doesn't automatically equate to him being killed.

 

[LieutLaww]

I can't see them killing Clint off, I can see them having him hand the mantle of Hawkeye over to Kate and then finally retire to be with his family. It would partially make Black Widow's sacrifice for nothing if they just go and kill him off and the end of this series.

 

[belloq87]

After making Clint's desire to get his family back such a featured element of ENDGAME, I can't possibly fathom that they'd kill him off on this show. That would be kind of perverse and cruel. I also don't think it would match the tone they've established so far, which has been pretty breezy.

 

[Nick]

After making Clint's desire to get his family back such a featured element of ENDGAME, I can't possibly fathom that they'd kill him off on this show. That would be kind of perverse and cruel. I also don't think it would match the tone they've established so far, which has been pretty breezy.

Well I wasn’t suggesting they do it in this series. More down the line type of thing and the Hawkeye mantle is shared for awhile. I was thinking Avengers 5 if it would happen, but if Renner wants to stick around that long I’m not sure of.