Universal Orlando Resort Expansion (Part 1)

[Cole]

They are afraid Star Wars is too boy centric, yet chock their parks with Princess everything.

EXACTLY!!! TDO just needs to stop

 

[Nick]

But if LOTR doesn't work out, a 3rd gate is really the only thing I could see combating Star Wars Land in terms of hype/momentum.

You don't just open a park because you want to beat the other guys with hype and momentum at the moment. That's the kind of stuff that hurts you long term.

Just look at Hollywood Studios.

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Also, before this rumor gets out of control, Spirit mentioned that a few guys mentioned it as a concern with Avatar coming as well. He also said in the same breath that it will have no affect on the project moving forward.

 

[Cole]

You don't just open a park because you want to beat the other guys with hype and momentum at the moment. That's the kind of stuff that hurts you long term.

Just look at Hollywood Studios.

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Also, before this rumor gets out of control, Spirit mentioned that a few guys mentioned it as a concern with Avatar coming as well. He also said in the same breath that it will have no affect on the project moving forward.

Thank god!!! I just don't see the concern whatsoever, no father with a daughter is going to back away from Disney because "there isn't enough for girls there". They're making a balance and I'm happy that us men are getting a break from the princesses for once. I'm also pretty damn certain Avatar is gender neutral too

 

[mahnamahna]

You don't just open a park because you want to beat the other guys with hype and momentum at the moment. That's the kind of stuff that hurts you long term.

Just look at Hollywood Studios.

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Also, before this rumor gets out of control, Spirit mentioned that a few guys mentioned it as a concern with Avatar coming as well. He also said in the same breath that it will have no affect on the project moving forward.

Only a park with DisneySea level theming wouldn't be Hollywood Studios bad comparison. I don't think Universal will do a rush job with a 3rd gate even if its by 2021

They're not building 3 hotels over the next 5 years for nothing - they're working towards being able to sustain a 3rd gate

 

[Nick]

Only a park with DisneySea level theming wouldn't be Hollywood Studios bad comparison. I don't think Universal will do a rush job with a 3rd gate even if its by 2021

They're not building 3 hotels over the next 5 years for nothing - they're working towards being able to sustain a 3rd gate

I don't think you quite understand my analogy. Disney rushed to get MGM open ahead of Universal back in 1989 to beat them to the punch. It opened with very little to do and has struggled with an identity since.

My point is, you don't open an entire park simply because you are trying to steal the other guys' thunder.

 

[mahnamahna]

I don't think you quite understand my analogy. Disney rushed to get MGM open ahead of Universal back in 1989 to beat them to the punch. It opened with very little to do and has struggled with an identity since.

My point is, you don't open an entire park simply because you are trying to steal the other guys' thunder.

Well two things I doubt this rumored 3rd gate would have:
1. Little to do
2. An identity crisis

From what it sounds like, the park would be pretty elaborate, as least by what whylightbulb said. It also sound like they've been working on models/plans for a title while now. Next is land which could be a few years. Unlike Hollywood Studios, it wouldn't just be a knee jerk reaction. Universal has been on their own drum for a while now and I can't see why they would want 7-8 hotels if they just wanted to stick to a 2 park system.

I'm expecting a 3rd gate by 2024 (10 years is long enough for it to not be a rush job) or so because they've been getting stuff done in record time without sacrificing quality. I would expect Universal would do fine with a 3rd gate once the parks get some increased attendance (10 m+ each)

 

[quinnmac000]

I think putting up a third gate would be an act of confidence. It shows that they are wanting to prove they are the best and that Diseny doesn't scare them, that they will make people want to come to Universal and just Universal. People who used to be Disney fanatics are now going on Universal only trips (got that from other boards), strike now and cement yourself. The fact you go on Disney forums and there are more articles and people talking about what Universal is doing than Disney proves Universal just needs to do a few more things before they take away a lot of Disney business and a third gate is that especially if its well themed.

 

[DufflesMcGee]

I think what people need to realize as well as to what tyler added is that maybe they do not want all the expansions to be filled as well. As an expanding park, wouldn't you want some expansion area left in the park so that they can attract more visitors to the old parks. For example, lets say nothing was to happen to LC before the third gate opens, what that gives UC room to do is be able to expand that area, create something new, and bring people back to IOA.

Also, Universal needs a better infrastructure before building a third park, this means the logistics of food, textiles for hotels, cleaning, etc. so that all guest can stay on site and be serviced properly. What I hope happens is that the area on kirkman does not become a new park but a new downtown/boardwalk area with more hotels, restaurants, etc. There are so many things that need to be done before we can fathom a sustainable 3rd gate.

 

[TylerDurden]

I think putting up a third gate would be an act of confidence. It shows that they are wanting to prove they are the best and that Diseny doesn't scare them, that they will make people want to come to Universal and just Universal. People who used to be Disney fanatics are now going on Universal only trips (got that from other boards), strike now and cement yourself. The fact you go on Disney forums and there are more articles and people talking about what Universal is doing than Disney proves Universal just needs to do a few more things before they take away a lot of Disney business and a third gate is that especially if its well themed.

The amount of people that post on theme park forums arent going to make or break a resort . You dont make major investments to prove a point, you do it make more money...and nobody, not even Universal knows if thats what it would do at this point.

All Im trying to say is that you guys are getting ahead of yourselves. Universal has plans for a third gate and more hotels, sure, but its not set in stone. Its simply a concept, so IF Universal feels the need to expand, they'll have something to go to. But just because you made a model or a sketch doesnt mean the project is a go-ahead in 10 years (I would like to add that Royal Pacific was supposed to be followed by 2 additional hotels up until after the initial expansion had commenced). Id be willing to bet Universal also has a master plan for the resort if they deem a third gate unnecessary, but that one isnt as exciting so nobody is willing to share it.

It seems like the waterpark is picking up speed...that will take a while to get going. THEN, take a few years to see how that does and we'll see where Universal sits at with a third gate. As of now, theyre too small to have a third gate attached.

If this site was around when Port Disney in Long Beach was being planned, I cant even imagine how crazy some of you guys would get lol.

 

[DufflesMcGee]

True, nothing's locked in stone, but I can't imagine why they would need 7 hotels if it's just 2 parks... I agree that we won't see a 3rd gate for a while, but really, Comcast has shown they can get a lot done in a short amount of time, so I'd imagine they could easily get the two current parks up to speed. The problem is like you mentioned - getting USF and IOA to the attendance levels necessary for a 3rd gate (I'd say both would have to be where DHS, AK, and Epcot currently are - 10 to 11 million). Two full-week resorts is cutting it close - but like others have said, you can easily do USF and IOA in less than a day each. Throw in a 3rd gate and water park - most would probably stay 3 or 4 days. There'd still be room for Disney - just not the 5 to 7 day ones they currently get from most guests. MK and Epcot will do fine since they're already full day parks.

DHS and AK are the two I'd reckon is what's in Comcast's sights. Pandora will get AK to maybe 11.5-12 million. DHS has no additions for the next 5 years at least... and Spirit at WDWMagic was hinting that TDO isn't sure about Star Wars since it's too "boy centric" so we may not get anything Star Wars until the 50th at WDW.

Potter has grown the market exponentially - and other IPs like LOTR and Nintendo could expand the market even more. Once people start realizing that Universal has something new and exciting every year, vacations may shift - especially when you consider how much WDW wasted on MM+. Not over night, not next year, not even 2016, but by Pandora, Disney's going to find out far too late that Universal is sneaking into the big boys club. Really, over 10 million each and 3 to 4 million for the water park/theme park hybrid would be enough for Comcast to begin considering a 3rd gate... maybe 11 million just to be safe, but by then, the parks would definitely generate enough revenue where a 3rd gate would be to Comcast's benefit.

And it's true that Disney is the only theme park company with more than 2 true theme parks - so I definitely would want Universal to be careful about not taking on too much. But if LOTR doesn't work out, a 3rd gate is really the only thing I could see combating Star Wars Land in terms of hype/momentum.

Think about it like this, they want 7 hotels for 2 parks and 1 water park so that they can hit a reasonable capacity range with a standard deviation throughout the year that is reasonable. I know that sounds technical, but they want occupancy. And btw, for economic families who are looking into hotels, they are def. going to want to stay at cabana over they "moderate" hotels at disney (all star, pop century)

now there is something that alot of you are overlooking. to the 95% of people who go to theme parks, which are not us, and that still low, going to orlando, disney is a must. Universal is catching up in the US market, but remember a huge % of tourist come from abroad, they are there for the one and only WDW, and if they are with their kids, its like a right of passage "I went when i was young, so I need to take my daughter or son". There are still a ton of people who have yet to visit Uni because they think WDW is the one and only. There is still work to be done for Universal.



And to add to ALL of this. why do we want to rush? lets let UC round out their current property like they have so far so we have 2 full day parks, 1 water park with activites to do on citywalk and the new hotels, and then we can get into a new whole day 3rd gate. If not, universal could end up like disney which has 3 1/2 day theme parks (epcot, hs, dak)

 

[Nick]

Also, just think of the hotel to park ratio is at WDW. WDW has 24 resorts (I may be a tad off), 35 if you count the 3rd party hotels on property.

Just the 24 Disney hotels comes out to 6 hotels per park (Plus Typhoon and Blizzard). 7 hotels at Uni comes out to 3.5 per park with two parks (plus WonderSea).

Obviously WDW is larger and more of the tourists who come to Orlando currently stay on WDW property, but I see no reason why IOA/USF/WonderSea couldn't support 7 hotels with the rate of growth we are seeing.

 

[mahnamahna]

Also, just think of the hotel to park ratio is at WDW. WDW has 24 resorts (I may be a tad off), 35 if you count the 3rd party hotels on property.

Just the 24 Disney hotels comes out to 6 hotels per park (Plus Typhoon and Blizzard). 7 hotels at Uni comes out to 3.5 per park with two parks (plus WonderSea).

Obviously WDW is larger and more of the tourists who come to Orlando currently stay on WDW property, but I see no reason why IOA/USF/WonderSea couldn't support 7 hotels with the rate of growth we are seeing.

Well said

And it's probably that time to admit the 3rd gate is definitely a fanboy's wish at the moment if whylightbulb hadn't mentioned it, we all would have stuck to just hotel growth primarily. And it is likely that we aren't gonna hear any serious talks/development of a 3rd gate until a little while after Wondersea opens (maybe a year or two)... and they've got a long way to go before they have the infrastructure for holding 3 park's worth of guests in their current hotel options. 7 hotels would be the minimum for a 3rd gate to be considered - 8 to 10 would be safer than sorry, though.

 

[Disneyhead]

I would imagine that they are well into the securing of IPs for the third gate.

 

[mahnamahna]

I would imagine that they are well into the securing of IPs for the third gate.

Wow... hard to believe they may already be collecting IPs for that! I'd figure a lot would be Universal owned, but obviously LOTR wouldn't be. What other non-Uni IPs would they seriously be looking at?

 

[DufflesMcGee]

Well said

And it's probably that time to admit the 3rd gate is definitely a fanboy's wish at the moment if whylightbulb hadn't mentioned it, we all would have stuck to just hotel growth primarily. And it is likely that we aren't gonna hear any serious talks/development of a 3rd gate until a little while after Wondersea opens (maybe a year or two)... and they've got a long way to go before they have the infrastructure for holding 3 park's worth of guests in their current hotel options. 7 hotels would be the minimum for a 3rd gate to be considered - 8 to 10 would be safer than sorry, though.

The point of this being brought up is that if it was whylightbulb who said it, then something is happening; he has a reputation to uphold as well and that is why we should be excited. however, the time it may take for this to be completed is what we are discussing. As tyler points out, they still need alot of rounding out to do at the current parks, waterparks, hotels, etc. As other say, universal might be ready right now (but this is more extreme than tylers thoughts). A third gate will come, thats a reality, the question is when. And like I said before, I would say that we will see a park on major blvd area (LHM land) and the land by Kirkman will become more hotels, shopping, recreation etc. Could be a cool place for an NBC Sports type of place (kind of like espn wide world of sports).

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I would imagine that they are well into the securing of IPs for the third gate.

Well into collecting and maybe even producing/distributing movies in order to built up the IP's. Maybe even No current IP'S but original concepts by Universal and partners (Legendary, Spielberg) that they can build up now then put into their new park

And btw... New dracula movie + rumors about a "Monsters Cinematic Universe"?

Maybe the wishes of some on this site of a "monster" island aren't impossible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXcSCDWY0_E
http://collider.com/universal-monsters-universe-roberto-orci-alex-kurtzma/

 

[TylerDurden]

I would imagine that they are well into the securing of IPs for the third gate.

That would be pretty short-sighted of them...who knows what will be popular over a decade from now, and even more importantly how do they know what will stand the test of time or not. IOA's IPs were secured later in the game, they were originally planning on having DC and Looney Tunes.

 

[DufflesMcGee]

That would be pretty short-sighted of them...who knows what will be popular over a decade from now, and even more importantly how do they know what will stand the test of time or not. IOA's IPs were secured later in the game, they were originally planning on having DC and Looney Tunes.

Those two with Nintendo and LOTR would be a great line up, however we must consider what they could be going for. Uso is "movie studios" IOA is lit. What genres or categories could be good for a third gate?

Park based on video games would seem rational because the last two were a medium of entertainment. But we could also be seeing something we dont expect like "mythological cities of the world" and original content for it. Atlantis, mount olympus, underworld with hades. it would be a way to compete with epcot, have food festivals and rides based of off folklore, myths which could turn into movies (like haunted mansion)

Could be different environments of the globe.
Desert, icecaps, grassland, mountain ranges with IT'S mixed in.

What I hope to see is either a complete new range of IPs or a complete new range of original content, or a mix of the two

 

[Cole]

I hope to see timeless IPs, stuff that we will look at and say to ourselves "yep that'll last 100 more years" this doesn't mean classic IPs by the way. I could care less if jaws or ghostbusters came back, the past is in the past.

I also want to be surprised atleast once when finding out the lands. Something that would make me say "that's interesting" or "bold move". I'm going to stay away from actual IP speculation for atleast 6 more years when something is announced because as Brad Pitt said above, I'd be short sided. I suggest you all do the same to keep this thread non chaotic

 

[mahnamahna]

That would be pretty short-sighted of them...who knows what will be popular over a decade from now, and even more importantly how do they know what will stand the test of time or not. IOA's IPs were secured later in the game, they were originally planning on having DC and Looney Tunes.

Lately, Universal has been going with IPs/attractions that have been around for a while (Simpsons, Transformers, Potter, Kong). Seuss, Marvel and JP are timeless, too. SpongeBob and Scooby Doo are to that point - if Universal wanted to go that route.

I don't see any flavor of the month IPs coming to the 3rd gate

LOTR
Nintendo (Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, etc)
Classic Monsters/Van Helsing
Star Trek
Doctor Who
James Bond
Looney Tunes/Hanna Barbera (would have been better choices instead of Toon Lagoon since Scooby and Bugs are pretty timeless at this point)
Godzilla
MLP (been around since 1983 and more popular than ever)
WoW (been around since early 90s - WoW itself came out 11 years ago)
Smurfs (pretty classic by now)
Laika (the fantasy aspect/theming would make the films' relevancy irrelevant honestly - doubt most have seen The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad for example)

There's plenty of IPs that have stood the test of time or where quality theming could surpass any concerns of timelessness.

I'd say a "childhood memories/nostalgia" based 3rd gate could work. Toys, video games, board games (where LOTR could have a loose tie in since Christopher Tolkien hates the online game), dreams and nightmares (horror based area) could be the sub themes. It could be a good idea since Universal is slightly geared towards teens/adults right now.

Similar to how DHS is the adult alternative to MK/Epcot (WS excluded), the 3rd gate could be a slightly more family friendly alternative to the other 2 without becoming explicitly kiddie as MK has of late.

I don't think Universal would go with original lands/attractions, but I'm up for surprises!

 

[TylerDurden]

^The only IP you listed there that could carry a whole other park is Lord of the Rings. Godzilla, James Bond, Star Trek...ok I could see those as rides at the Studios. Classic monsters are good, but cant carry a full park considering they cant even carry an attraction at the existing parks. Dr Who is way, wayyy too niche, Looney Tunes clearly arent that easy to secure considering they couldnt get them for Cartoon World. World of Warcraft is, again, way too niche and has a certain connotation associated with it, lets be honest. Smurfs...just no. And Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were joking about My Little Pony. Laika...what is the sudden fascination with this? Do most people even know what that is?

And you have to give up on Nintendo...that is more unlikely and preposterous than DC. Im sorry, its just not as marketable or popular as you think it is.

Bring in Lord of the Rings and I would be much less skeptical of a third gate (although Universal would have to face the possibility of said third park cannibalizing the current ones). Other than that, I cant think of anything that would justify a whole other park.