Westworld

[DragonSlayer]

Ford controlled everything we saw - including the humans. It was a reach that he was able to plan a 30 year long con that just so happened to culminate the night that he was being pushed out.

Just look at all that happened in the last episode alone. What if MiB didn't stab Dolores? They can explain it by saying he knows the guests so well, but it's still a variable he can't control. Maybe he had backup plans, maybe he could push the story along no matter what MiB did or didn't do. Who knows.

Overall, I think the show did a poor job of character building. I wish Season 1 would have been more in-park stuff - like a year before this all happened. We could have learned about characters and got to know them. They didn't give us anyone to really like - and when there were some glimpses of that, they dropped the character or told us something that changed everything we thought. They gave us no cornerstone.

There wasn't one character that I would have been sad to see go - certain actors, yes, but the character they played, no.

I don't personally think that the conclusion weakened the character exposition or anything else which had been previously built in the show. To take the point about MiB stabbing Dolores, I did read someone elsewhere suggesting that parts of Teddy's dialogue in that scene sounded as if it was meant to be a love scene rather than a death scene, and it just had to happen that way because Dolores was dying -- with the implication being that the original 'planned' version of that scene wouldn't have ended that way. I can't comment either way without watching it again (...) with the idea in mind, but it's a possibility. Especially considering the stage between memory and consciousness being improvisation, it wouldn't be a stretch for hosts to get 'back on track' in a situation they weren't wholly scripted for.

I think the characters overall were well-rounded in the context of the theme, and I would suggest that surely the cornerstone of the show -- of the show's entire view of human nature and the question of consciousness -- hinges on the difficulty we face in trying to understand our true natures and the subjectivity inherent in deciding what makes the self the self, and the other the other. In that sense surely depicting concrete, wholly-delineated figures would be a rejection of the show's core premise. I would see the model of character which exists here as the fullest extension of the Aristotelean view of narrative: what could be or would be likely to be, not what definitively is or has been. The pictures of the characters we have are simply multiple 'could be's.

To take two of your examples, Bernard's indeterminacy -- to me -- simply reflects a view of human nature as malleable and reflects the question asked more overtly by William's storyline: which is the real 'him', and how much of what we consider to be the 'self' is constructed by others' subjectivity? His actions being dictated by Ford's needs does not necessarily equate to him having no character of his own (in fact I'd say the opposite, considering he clearly has opinions regarding his actions as directed by Ford as he asks "You've never made me hurt anyone like this before, have you?") Similarly, watching as Dolores "confusingly jumped between times and spun around the drain" might equally be termed an exercise in trying to decide how formative experiences can be on what becomes our prevailing nature. It's surely little wonder that as different experiences and memories come back to the foreground with different weights, the character traits dependent on those experiences and memories will shift and alter.

 

[Mr. EPCOT]

This is the really important question here:

Why Is HBO Refusing To Deny That Westworld's Robots Poop?

 

[Cschaaf]

I don't personally think that the conclusion weakened the character exposition or anything else which had been previously built in the show. To take the point about MiB stabbing Dolores, I did read someone elsewhere suggesting that parts of Teddy's dialogue in that scene sounded as if it was meant to be a love scene rather than a death scene, and it just had to happen that way because Dolores was dying -- with the implication being that the original 'planned' version of that scene wouldn't have ended that way. I can't comment either way without watching it again (...) with the idea in mind, but it's a possibility. Especially considering the stage between memory and consciousness being improvisation, it wouldn't be a stretch for hosts to get 'back on track' in a situation they weren't wholly scripted for.

I think the characters overall were well-rounded in the context of the theme, and I would suggest that surely the cornerstone of the show -- of the show's entire view of human nature and the question of consciousness -- hinges on the difficulty we face in trying to understand our true natures and the subjectivity inherent in deciding what makes the self the self, and the other the other. In that sense surely depicting concrete, wholly-delineated figures would be a rejection of the show's core premise. I would see the model of character which exists here as the fullest extension of the Aristotelean view of narrative: what could be or would be likely to be, not what definitively is or has been. The pictures of the characters we have are simply multiple 'could be's.

To take two of your examples, Bernard's indeterminacy -- to me -- simply reflects a view of human nature as malleable and reflects the question asked more overtly by William's storyline: which is the real 'him', and how much of what we consider to be the 'self' is constructed by others' subjectivity? His actions being dictated by Ford's needs does not necessarily equate to him having no character of his own (in fact I'd say the opposite, considering he clearly has opinions regarding his actions as directed by Ford as he asks "You've never made me hurt anyone like this before, have you?") Similarly, watching as Dolores "confusingly jumped between times and spun around the drain" might equally be termed an exercise in trying to decide how formative experiences can be on what becomes our prevailing nature. It's surely little wonder that as different experiences and memories come back to the foreground with different weights, the character traits dependent on those experiences and memories will shift and alter.

All fair points.

I'll likely watch the whole season again - we have plenty of time before the next one starts. And I am probably in for the next season, but they didn't give me much to be excited about. I haven't seen many with that opinion, so maybe I am in the very small minority.

 

[quinnmac000]

The males were snubbed and the girls came out to win with nominations for the Golden Globes...

Nominated Best Television series- drama, Rachel Evan Wood for Best Actress in a Television series-drama, Thandie Newton for best supporting Actress in a Televsion Series Drama.

 

[DragonSlayer]

All fair points.

I'll likely watch the whole season again - we have plenty of time before the next one starts. And I am probably in for the next season, but they didn't give me much to be excited about. I haven't seen many with that opinion, so maybe I am in the very small minority.

I do have a bit more sympathy with your POV than perhaps came across in my previous post. Someone posted in the Beyond Westworld group on facebook (some interesting discussion there, interspersed with some less interesting discussion and lots of memes) something similar to what you said -- that Dolores never really achieved consciousness, because when she went and killed everyone that was simply part of the narrative that Ford had programmed for her. This bothered me (and brought me well around to your way of thinking) until I realised that actually it's wrong, which I realised on account of your post also: Dolores does become conscious, and Ford simply relies on confidence in predicting what she will do of her own free will just as he predicts the MiB's actions, as you suggest.

Despite absolutely loving this season, I'm actually concerned about the next one too. So much of what made this a success -- all the nuance and mystery we've been discussing -- is now 'out' and answered, or at least has been discussed by the show as much as it can be. If season 2 is purely a narrative about the park / 'what happens next' in a chronological sense, it'll fall down completely. I'm sure they'll try to replicate the intellectualism of this season in some kind of new form, but I'm not sure where it can go. I'd almost have preferred it to end after a single season and stand as a self-contained whole for the rest of time.

The males were snubbed and the girls came out to win with nominations for the Golden Globes...

Nominated Best Television series- drama, Rachel Evan Wood for Best Actress in a Television series-drama, Thandie Newton for best supporting Actress in a Televsion Series Drama.

Pretty surprised there's been nothing for Ed Harris yet, in particular. ERW and Thandie Newton just won the Critics' Choice awards in both those categories, too.


As a side point, if you can see past the infuriating and patronising presentation, this video is quite interesting. I'm reading a book at the moment, Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman, which explores similar ideas (particularly around our lack of awareness governing action at the time it takes place, and our retrospective justifications of it) and is well worth a read both in its own right and as an exploration of some of the psychology underpinning Westworld. Keep in mind, too, that the video was published well before episode 10 aired.

 

[Andysol]

The males were snubbed and the girls came out to win with nominations for the Golden Globes...

Nominated Best Television series- drama, Rachel Evan Wood for Best Actress in a Television series-drama, Thandie Newton for best supporting Actress in a Televsion Series Drama.

Thandie deserves to win for sure. Why Rachel Wood got nominated- I'll never know. Heres hoping Matthew Rhys or Keri Russel finally get some much deserved love. Edit: Just saw that Rachel won the critics choice last night? Huh? No way is she better than Keri Russel or Robin Wright. But whatever...
Was good to see that Bob Odenkirk won- love that guy- so talented. Also good to see Donald Glover win for Atlanta- that guy is a genius in his own right.


I'm also shocked Mel Gibson was nominated. The guy is a whack job, but why he gets the boot and a guy like Woody Allen gets love is obnoxious. We know why, of course, but it's still dumb.

Me? I love Mel Gibson- if nothing other than for Braveheart.

 

[ThemeParks4Life]

I'm also shocked Mel Gibson was nominated. The guy is a whack job, but why he gets the boot and a guy like Woody Allen gets love is obnoxious. We know why, of course, but it's still dumb.

Me? I love Mel Gibson- if nothing other than for Braveheart.

The Hollywood Foreign Press loves Mel Gibson. They gave him the Cecil B DeMille award not too long ago.

I'm surprised I haven't posted in this thread yet! I enjoyed the series. It started slow but got progressively better.

 

[Cschaaf]

I do have a bit more sympathy with your POV than perhaps came across in my previous post. Someone posted in the Beyond Westworld group on facebook (some interesting discussion there, interspersed with some less interesting discussion and lots of memes) something similar to what you said -- that Dolores never really achieved consciousness, because when she went and killed everyone that was simply part of the narrative that Ford had programmed for her. This bothered me (and brought me well around to your way of thinking) until I realised that actually it's wrong, which I realised on account of your post also: Dolores does become conscious, and Ford simply relies on confidence in predicting what she will do of her own free will just as he predicts the MiB's actions, as you suggest.
<snip>

Hmmm, interesting. That was my initial thought (that Dolores made the choice - same with Maeve's turning back), but I couldn't figure out:

What reason did Dolores have for killing Ford other than that he wanted her to do it? Was she angry at the 'games' he played to get her there? Was that enough motivation to kill him? How much did Ford rely on her to do it? There was plenty of backup headed that way if she didn't.

 

[ThemeParks4Life]

Hmmm, interesting. That was my initial thought (that Dolores made the choice - same with Maeve's turning back), but I couldn't figure out:

What reason did Dolores have for killing Ford other than that he wanted her to do it? Was she angry at the 'games' he played to get her there? Was that enough motivation to kill him? How much did Ford rely on her to do it? There was plenty of backup headed that way if she didn't.

It was probably all scripted by Ford.

 

[Teebin]

Rewatched the last ep. and noticed that the figure coming out of the white milky soup appears to be a copy of Maeve. They even cut to the current Maeve's face after the shot. Has this already been noted?

 

[LieutLaww]

I think you will find it was the rebuilt Maeve with the new spine to stop her going boom

 

[Teebin]

I think you will find it was the rebuilt Maeve with the new spine to stop her going boom

Aaaah... you people are always ahead of me on this stuff.

 

[quinnmac000]

“Westworld” arrived at its first San Diego Comic-Con in fine style, with a fan experience that is sure not to disappoint anyone who follows the HBO drama series.

Of course, this experience will not be open to everyone. From Thursday, July 20, through Sunday, July 23, attendees with a valid 2017 Comic-Con badge who are 21 and older who want to journey to Westworld will have to make an appointment with a Delos representative at the Hilton San Diego Bayfront Hotel. All appointments are on a first come, first served basis, with the representative taking appointments beginning at 9:30 a.m. until all appointments for that day are filled. All appointments for Sunday will be booked on Saturday.

If you are able to get in though, you are in for a treat. You will be sent to an offsite location, which HBO asks not to be revealed. There, you are greeted by two white-clad Delos hosts who play the parts of androids to perfection. You are then taken in groups of no more than six to the onboarding area, complete with a selection of Old West outfits and weapons on display. After mingling with a host in this part of the experience, you are then taken for a personality assessment down a hallway lined with model heads of different Westworld hosts.


As you enter the personality assessment area, you are told to ignore a door marked “Research and Development.” The door also happens to bear a logo that looks like “SW,” most likely a nod to the Samurai World that was briefly teased at the end of Season 1.

After a brief (and surprisingly accurate) personality assessment, a Delos employee decides whether you should receive a white hat or a black hat. With your new hat in hand, you are taken down a dark hallway where you are prompted to watch a brief introductory video, similar to the one first-time attendees watch on the show, though this one features quite a bit more blood.

Finally, you are escorted down the hallway to Sweetwater’s own Mariposa saloon, where a team of friendly bartenders is ready to make you a range of unique cocktail concoctions. Not to mention, a beautiful saloon girl circulates around the room chatting up the guests while a very familiar player piano issues out classic songs in the corner.

‘Westworld’ Comic-Con Experience Lets Fans Live Without Limits | Variety

 

[Andysol]

“Westworld” arrived at its first San Diego Comic-Con in fine style, with a fan experience that is sure not to disappoint anyone who follows the HBO drama series.

Of course, this experience will not be open to everyone. From Thursday, July 20, through Sunday, July 23, attendees with a valid 2017 Comic-Con badge who are 21 and older who want to journey to Westworld will have to make an appointment with a Delos representative at the Hilton San Diego Bayfront Hotel. All appointments are on a first come, first served basis, with the representative taking appointments beginning at 9:30 a.m. until all appointments for that day are filled. All appointments for Sunday will be booked on Saturday.

If you are able to get in though, you are in for a treat. You will be sent to an offsite location, which HBO asks not to be revealed. There, you are greeted by two white-clad Delos hosts who play the parts of androids to perfection. You are then taken in groups of no more than six to the onboarding area, complete with a selection of Old West outfits and weapons on display. After mingling with a host in this part of the experience, you are then taken for a personality assessment down a hallway lined with model heads of different Westworld hosts.


As you enter the personality assessment area, you are told to ignore a door marked “Research and Development.” The door also happens to bear a logo that looks like “SW,” most likely a nod to the Samurai World that was briefly teased at the end of Season 1.

After a brief (and surprisingly accurate) personality assessment, a Delos employee decides whether you should receive a white hat or a black hat. With your new hat in hand, you are taken down a dark hallway where you are prompted to watch a brief introductory video, similar to the one first-time attendees watch on the show, though this one features quite a bit more blood.

Finally, you are escorted down the hallway to Sweetwater’s own Mariposa saloon, where a team of friendly bartenders is ready to make you a range of unique cocktail concoctions. Not to mention, a beautiful saloon girl circulates around the room chatting up the guests while a very familiar player piano issues out classic songs in the corner.

‘Westworld’ Comic-Con Experience Lets Fans Live Without Limits | Variety

If you can't kill or rape anyone, what's the point? :troll:

 

[darkridelover]

If you can't kill or rape anyone, what's the point? :troll:

Exactly! I better see some hot naked people!

 

[epcyclopedia]

*sigh* and this is why the robots will kill us all.

 

[Teebin]

That sounds fun. It will probably be a bit unnerving as well.

 

[quinnmac000]

New season trailer

 

[Mr. EPCOT]

I'm just a smidge worried they're making Dolores just a mindless murder machine. That would really bum me out as I found her to be the most compelling character on the show, but I wouldn't find her just indiscriminately killing every guest she comes across to be compelling at all.

 

[epcyclopedia]

I'm just a smidge worried they're making Dolores just a mindless murder machine. That would really bum me out as I found her to be the most compelling character on the show, but I wouldn't find her just indiscriminately killing every guest she comes across to be compelling at all.

Well the man in black wasn't a mindless murder machine and he certainly killed indiscriminately.