Westworld

[Teebin]

Ok, why is Ford not shocked to see Bernard in the final below the church scene when last he requested, Bernard offed himself?

 

[LieutLaww]

He knew Maeve would find him and bring him back as she would need him at some point, all part of her backstory that Ford rewrote.

 

[DragonSlayer]

What an incredible ending. Achieved everything it needed to; I don't think there's honestly anything I would change about it. I've not read through anyone's comments yet (wanted to clear my own thoughts first and take some time to form my own interpretations) but will do so after writing this.

As a general point, I thought the emotional poignancy of some scenes this episode was genuinely heartbreaking. This show veers wildly between being all-out action, and being a really profound exercise in philosophy and character. Other general points were the cinematography and score were exceptional this week.

On Dolores:
I am perhaps in the minority in actually liking this storyline. It felt appropriate that, having been the starting point 10 weeks ago, it was Dolores who finally tied everything up. I felt myself rooting for her hugely as the episode reached its climax, and couldn't help feeling this huge sense of elation when she finally had her moment of anagnorisis and realised it was her own voice she had been hearing. I'm still pondering her end though. I think the notion of the maze being a way of understanding one's own nature / sentience is a strong one, but there was a slight ambiguity in whether the realisation truly sets Dolores free, or comes with the necessity of simply accepting the fact of her situation. Having been told to think about "what you must do, who you must become" there's certainly an argument to suggest that she must accept becoming who she was before - again. The blue dress and the uncanny resemblance between her massacre here and the massacre she was part of before the park opened certainly gives some weight to this, along with her admission when looking at the maze toy that she had figured out the answer before. The whole board being dead -- and presumably the collapse of the whole team 'below' as well -- is the only factor creating the possibility of this time being different. Either way, really enjoyed this conclusion.

On William:
Satisfying end here too, if predictable by the time it came. Good transition sequence explaining the way William became the MiB. I thought there was perhaps a tiny missed opportunity to wrong-foot the audience in the confrontation with Dolores -- when she resisted him on the basis that someone who "truly loved" her was going to rescue her, my first thought was William but I then assumed (because William would be such a predictable answer) that she would actually be referring to Teddy. Doing this would have necessitated a slightly different reveal, but it's a small point. The full extent of his evil was nicely confirmed in stabbing Dolores -- having thought that she'd finally beaten him, my jaw absolutely dropped when he stabbed her.

On Maeve:
This ending was a good one and perhaps the least predictable of the bunch. The notion that some of her anarchism was actually scripted goes a long way to justifying the seemingly questionable way a lot of this storyline proceeded (despite her telling Felix to not be "so f***ing stupid, the idea that he and the other techs could also be hosts programmed into the same storyline would justify their failure to just stop her in her tracks before it reached the point it did). I also though the religious undertones which were brought to the surface in this episode between free will and predetermination worked well, and perhaps could have been exploited more fully earlier on. Perhaps the greatest achievement of this plot's conclusion was in the way it reflected and confirmed the comments made by Ford about trauma and suffering -- it was ultimately the recollection of suffering and hurt which overcame all else and motivated Maeve to get off the train even after all her efforts.

Another general thought to conclude with (for now) is on how the show has enacted its own philosophy. Ford's claim in relation to the maze -- that every time you get a bit closer to the 'answer', you take a wrong turn and are sent spiralling uncontrollably out to the edges of the maze away from the solution -- will doubtless seem familiar to anyone who has tried to figure out all the complexities of this show as it's been going along. Truly, a masterpiece.

Now to read all your thoughts and go back to episode 1 :thumbsup:

 

[Andysol]

Great points all around Dragon- very good insight. I wanted to touch on this point- because I felt similarly.

I thought there was perhaps a tiny missed opportunity to wrong-foot the audience in the confrontation with Dolores -- when she resisted him on the basis that someone who "truly loved" her was going to rescue her, my first thought was William but I then assumed (because William would be such a predictable answer) that she would actually be referring to Teddy. Doing this would have necessitated a slightly different reveal, but it's a small point. The full extent of his evil was nicely confirmed in stabbing Dolores -- having thought that she'd finally beaten him, my jaw absolutely dropped when he stabbed her.

I actually was thinking she was going to say Teddy the whole time with a slight chance she was going to say William. When she said William- I thought "awesome"- but then, he just kind of shrugged it off. I think they really, really missed a good opportunity there for MiB to have some internal conflict and stuggle- if only for 2 seconds through facial expressions. Even if the end result was the same, he just shrugged it like he didn't really care and it was just a "minor" reveal. When in fact- she has had his memory on her mind for 30 years- he was truly the one she loved the most more than the thousands of the "loves" she had over the 30 years. That deserved a little bit more intricate of a reaction from Ed Harris based on that revelation. I thought the ball was really dropped there.

 

[DragonSlayer]

I actually was thinking she was going to say Teddy the whole time with a slight chance she was going to say William. When she said William- I thought "awesome"- but then, he just kind of shrugged it off. I think they really, really missed a good opportunity there for MiB to have some internal conflict and stuggle- if only for 2 seconds through facial expressions. Even if the end result was the same, he just shrugged it like he didn't really care and it was just a "minor" reveal. When in fact- she has had his memory on her mind for 30 years- he was truly the one she loved the most more than the thousands of the "loves" she had over the 30 years. That deserved a little bit more intricate of a reaction from Ed Harris based on that revelation. I thought the ball was really dropped there.

That's a really good point. I was so surprised that she did actually say William that in the seconds after I was too surprised to register how he reacted, but you're completely right. I think they pushed the point so hard in the retrospective sequence that MiB is his 'true' nature and that as William he was just masking his inner self that perhaps they wanted to give the impression he had no sense of remorse or kind feeling, but if this is their justification I agree it's not a convincing one. Clearly, on some level and at some time he did feel strongly for her, so there should really have been some hesitation or something, even if as you say it had only been for a split second.

Something which is perhaps of relevance here is what happened in the 30 years between William being with her and MiB appearing. The shot of William appearing back in Sweetwater and finding Dolores implies that it was perhaps a year at most which he spent searching for her, but what happened next? Is the point at which he sees her with another guest/host restarting her cycle the point at which he leaves and marries Logan's sister? If so, and they don't see each other for 30 years, it makes her recollection of him even more surprising -- especially given that we must surely assume her loops with Teddy continued for the intervening period.

On a separate note entirely, the full score is now released on Spotify -- 34 tracks and 1:49 duration!

 

[Andysol]

Clearly, on some level and at some time he did feel strongly for her, so there should really have been some hesitation or something, even if as you say it had only been for a split second.

Right- a "one dimensional" character is so 60s. The audience, and us, don't want that- because we know one dimensional people don't exist. Give him the ability to turn good if he has to in future seasons, or give him some complexities and make it deeper. Make him hurt in situations, even when he's doing them. I'd much prefer him to be the conflicted villian, honestly, because we just spent a season "feeling" for the guy. Make me "feel" for him in this situation. Oh well.

 

[DragonSlayer]

Right- a "one dimensional" character is so 60s. The audience, and us, don't want that- because we know one dimensional people don't exist. Give him the ability to turn good if he has to in future seasons, or give him some complexities and make it deeper. Make him hurt in situations, even when he's doing them. I'd much prefer him to be the conflicted villian, honestly, because we just spent a season "feeling" for the guy. Make me "feel" for him in this situation. Oh well.

Agreed. Not sure if you saw my edit above before replying as well.

On a purely practical level, I did also wonder why he would spend 30 years trying to unlock the maze and then just try to kill Dolores when she took longer than he wanted to reveal the answer at the end.

 

[Teebin]

More questions.

What were the huge breakers and switches the guy pulls down on near the end?

Also, why did all the power go out in the rail station as Maeve is leaving?

Where is this show going? In computer speak, it appears the biobots have all been given full permissions.

 

[LieutLaww]

Everything shut down in the station as no guests were coming so the hosts etc were not needed to be active

 

[Teebin]

Everything shut down in the station as no guests were coming so the hosts etc were not needed to be active

How did you arrive at that? Many guests were walking through the station and Maeve wasn't effected.

 

[DragonSlayer]

Incredibly I've only found the time to watch this once so far, so I'll need to watch again tomorrow -- but I wouldn't be surprised if the power being shut off was part of Ford's script, given that he had orchestrated the whole Maeve breakout scenario and everything that came with it up to that point. The question that obviously raises is if he'd intended for her to be away and gone on the train by that point, not anticipating her change of heart.

This reminds me of something else which really came out in this episode, which is the vision of Maeve as a sort of 'Dolores V2'. Tied with my earlier question about Dolores' ultimate end point and whether she's stuck accepting her circularity or does truly gain freedom, perhaps Ford intended for her to achieve what Dolores would never be able to.

 

[Teebin]

But Felix stated that setting to 20 would make a bot far smarter than a human.

Too, the only part of the series that I find ludicrous is that old man Ford could have controlled so many characters and stories in one fell swoop.

 

[DragonSlayer]

But Felix stated that setting to 20 would make a bot far smarter than a human.

I think that's all now seriously debatable given the revelation of Ford's input. In that context, those supposed parameters might as well be meaningless. The maze / path to sentience is entirely separate from 'intelligence' as described by the numerical value. What Maeve did after being set to 20 was what she would have done anyway, because it wasn't her innate intelligence which caused her to do it. It may perhaps be that a host would be capable of outwitting a human once they'd solved the problem of their own consciousness, but all the time that is missing - no matter how high the numerical intelligence -- they are still controlled by the game.

 

[LieutLaww]

How did you arrive at that? Many guests were walking through the station and Maeve wasn't effected.

You see the same thing in reverse earlier in the episode when the board arrive by train, all the hosts are frozen in place then everything springs to life as the train arrives. Maeve wouldn't be affected as she can ignore the commands to freeze her.

 

[DragonSlayer]

Having watched again, particularly considering the final five minutes, I feel more certainty regarding Dolores and the 'answer' being to accept a return to who she was.

Ford's recollection that "then I realised someone was paying attention, someone who could change" clearly points to Dolores and her capacity to gain near-consciousness the first time around when Arnold tries to stop Ford opening the park. His subsequent "so I began to compose a new story for them" seems a reference to the start of the 'new narrative' which, as several people have pointed out, has been the 35-year effort to allow the hosts to recognise themselves and gain sentience. The two lines of his speech which seal the deal follow: "It begins in a time of war, with a villain named Wyatt" -- it 'began' all that time ago with Dolores as Wyatt killing all the hosts and Arnold, and the present 'new narrative' version (which is technically what Ford is referring to when speaking of "It") 'begins' with Dolores becoming her previous self again and doing the same thing. The tie between the two is confirmed in his next line: "And a killing, this time by choice" -- because Dolores knows now, of her own accord, who she must become: blue dress Dolores.

I think the idea that consciousness doesn't actually equate to freedom for any of the hosts, should they ever gain it, is foregrounded in Maeve's line upon waking Bernard, too: "Here you are finally awake, and your only wish is to go back to sleep." Dolores could be forgiven for feeling the same way once she realises what she has to do and who she has to become.

Interestingly, I think the key line which locks all of this in comes much earlier, during the exchange with MiB -- Dolores says, whilst standing next to her grave, "It ends in a place I've never been, a thing I'll never do." The maze thus elides consciousness and death, which reflects the manner in which every successive attempt to get closer has always ended in the character dying. See Dolores with Arnold, Teddy with Armistice, and any number of others.

So the really interesting point is that this leaves one question unanswered. Once the camera stops rolling, does Dolores complete the reenactment with exact accuracy by shooting herself?

2018 is so far away :cry:
(And apologies for thread spam, but I can't get this episode out of my head)

 

[Cschaaf]

Ford controlled everything we saw - including the humans. It was a reach that he was able to plan a 30 year long con that just so happened to culminate the night that he was being pushed out.

Just look at all that happened in the last episode alone. What if MiB didn't stab Dolores? They can explain it by saying he knows the guests so well, but it's still a variable he can't control. Maybe he had backup plans, maybe he could push the story along no matter what MiB did or didn't do. Who knows.

Overall, I think the show did a poor job of character building. I wish Season 1 would have been more in-park stuff - like a year before this all happened. We could have learned about characters and got to know them. They didn't give us anyone to really like - and when there were some glimpses of that, they dropped the character or told us something that changed everything we thought. They gave us no cornerstone.

There wasn't one character that I would have been sad to see go - certain actors, yes, but the character they played, no.

 

[Teebin]

^ I found Bernard to be likeable and found Maeve to be admirable within her apparent limits.

 

[Cschaaf]

^ I found Bernard to be likeable and found Maeve to be admirable within her apparent limits.

I wrote out a long, bulleted character 'study' for each character but deleted it because it was too long and made me look like an insane person.

Some notes for Maeve and Bernard:

• Maeve was one of the better defined characters and became a fan favorite. We could cheer for her because she was rebelling and doing things her way... then we found out she was only doing what Ford's narrative told her to do. That took away, for me anyway, all of the fun of the character. Thandi Newton outshone her character. She made us care about the character. It seems like she may have made her own decision at the end of the season, so there is promise for that character.

• Bernard was also one of the shows strongest characters - again, until we found out that he was Arnold... and, essentially, he, along with Maeve, was also Ford. All of the bots were Ford, really. We were shown Bernard's intelligence and warmth towards the hosts and those were great traits that we could latch on to. To me, that all got washed away when we find out that he's that way when Ford needs him to be, and not that way when Ford needs him to be something else. I didn't feel anything when Bernard died because it didn't mean anything. Jeffery Wright is also one of the strongest actors on the show and is much of the reason we were drawn to the character. I'm not sure what place Bernard has in the next season.

Quicker notes on some others:

• Ford - Anthony Hopkins light up the screen when he was on. But we never knew how we were supposed to feel about Ford, which is fine, that can be interesting. I just think if it wasn't an actor as strong as Anthony Hopkins, we wouldn't have cared if we were supposed to like him or not.
• Dolores - the pilot was so good for the Dolores character then we just watched as she confusingly jumped between times and spun around the drain. If you didn't care for Evan Rachel Wood's acting, there was no reason to care about Dolores.
• Teddy - great building in the pilot, then he became a prop. Or worse, he disappeared. James Marsden must have booked another job during the gap between the pilot and the season, he was terribly underused this season. That was a character we could have cheered for and felt sorry for over and over.
• Stubbs and Elsie - they were pretty good characters and the ones we could probably relate to the most. They weren't evil, they weren't depraved, they weren't looking after their own interests. They weren't the smartest going out and investigating on their own, but next to Ford, they were the only smart people on the show. Then they disappeared without explanation or even any real notice from others on the show.
• Theresa - just started to get interesting with the spy work she was doing, then the show wanted to replace her with a younger model.
• Charlotte - nothing to see here, move along.

I see this show compared to Lost frequently. I didn't watch much of that, maybe 1.5 seasons, but one thing that show did very well was character building. You knew who people were. You might love them... you might hate them... but you felt something for most of the characters.

Maybe this was their plan. Maybe they didn't want us to get attached to any of the characters.

 

[Teebin]

As someone said, the next season is going to be chaos for a bit. How many of the bots did Ford give carte blanche authorizations? All of them? How is anyone going to get that under control?

 

[Teebin]

And what about Elsie and Stubbs? Any theories how that plays out if at all?