Attendance Tracker

[Mad Dog]

Interesting thought and I think that holds true for some. But my in-laws only went once to Disney when they were growing up. In fact none of them were Disney freaks or anything like that until my husband and I moved down here. That was when they started going to Disney because they were visiting us and it was the thing to do. My other friend who are really Disney freaks also did not grow up on Disney. They started going when they moved to Jacksonville. I will have to start asking these people that just say there is more Magic at Disney when they started going to Disney.

It will be interesting when our one friends from Pittsburgh finally decide to go to Universal. They as kids never went to Disney, but they go to Disney normally once a year with their kids. They are waiting for the youngest (5) to be a little taller and then they plan to try it. It will be interesting their viewpoint.

My family grew up going to Disney, but we also went to Universal and Sea World. So since I went to all, I still go to all.

Once again though, youngest at 5, still Disney material for another 5 years. I think it's not just the nostalgia of people that went to WDW. A lot is the artificial nostalgia generated by Disney's marketing powerhouse, and their animated movies since the late 80's and the old old classic animated films (Most of Disney's films between 1960, and until the Little Mermaid came out were pretty drab & terrible). The Disney IP is the key I think....I'm relatively new to the theme park world so I don't have many formed conceptions. But after 6 years of very extensive attendance at both WDW & Universal (apx. 4 weeks every year), my opinion is that Universal has, on balance, better rides/attractions than WDW. And WDW is top heavy with rides at MK, which is a very good park. The other three park's rides are sparse & weak for the most part in relation to Universal . WDW's shows though, are superior to Universal. ...Just my opinion as one who never bought into the Disney marketing or was much affected by it. So I started on an even keel....We talk to a lot of other tourists when we're at WDW. Nearly every tourist that we've talked to had good things to say about their stops at Universal. But we usually don't mix much with people who have young kids, so we don't hear from that demographic.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

Universal needs to improve its customer service and training. I went to Disney and Universal this weekend for my birthday and the difference is night and day. First, at Disney I was told happy birthday by castmembers maybe 200 times, and at universal like 3 times. We even got random fast passes by a custodian while eating in a restraunt because she noticed my birthday pin. Second, it seems pointless but at Disney you see random castmembers blowing bubbles and just hanging out talking to people. These castmembers really do make an impact. At IOA, there is always this one castmember in marvel land that adds streetmosphere. I can go on but I wish I worked in Universals CRM department.

Mike, how does this and your prior GR post pertain to attendance declined at WDW?

 

[SkiBum]

Once again though, youngest at 5, still Disney material for another 5 years. I think it's not just the nostalgia of people that went to WDW. A lot is the artificial nostalgia generated by Disney's marketing powerhouse, and their animated movies since the late 80's and the old old classic animated films (Most of Disney's films between 1960, and until the Little Mermaid came out were pretty drab & terrible). The Disney IP is the key I think....I'm relatively new to the theme park world so I don't have many formed conceptions. But after 6 years of very extensive attendance at both WDW & Universal (apx. 4 weeks every year), my opinion is that Universal has, on balance, better rides/attractions than WDW. And WDW is top heavy with rides at MK, which is a very good park. The other three park's rides are sparse & weak for the most part in relation to Universal . WDW's shows though, are superior to Universal. ...Just my opinion as one who never bought into the Disney marketing or was much affected by it. So I started on an even keel....We talk to a lot of other tourists when we're at WDW. Nearly every tourist that we've talked to had good things to say about their stops at Universal. But we usually don't mix much with people who have young kids, so we don't hear from that demographic.

It feels like they lost their way at WDW, which many argued happened at DL more than a decade ago before self-correcting. Billions of dollars in MyMagic+ which isn't so magical. Underwhelming rides that went way over budget and didn't produce any satisfaction. The comments about Rivers of Light, a simple night show that is over budget on time and money. Building rides that are geared for young children. They ignored what I would consider to be the basic tenet of theme parks and that is to design for your guests instead of dictating to them. They haven't built anything for a while to interest adolescent children. We were told that MyMagic+ would make everything great and it simply wasn't. It's just been a morass of bad or questionable decisions. The bad thing is that people say, "They need to fix this quickly!" We need to understand that they cannot change this quickly. I think that it is matter of reigning in the cost overruns, particularly for ride creation, and starting to define the parks in ways that are true to their theme. Then, start building rides that make sense for the park receiving something new. Focus on building DHS out to a fully-formed park with more than four new rides.

It's a lot like the car manufacturing industry. Some manufacturers made poor automobiles and just figured that the population would buy the cars for the badge on the front of the car. People started saying, "No, I want quality, efficiency, and these types of things." Until the manufacturers made changes, they fell backward in market share but they are finally regaining position.

 

[Mad Dog]

It feels like they lost their way at WDW, which many argued happened at DL more than a decade ago before self-correcting. Billions of dollars in MyMagic+ which isn't so magical. Underwhelming rides that went way over budget and didn't produce any satisfaction. The comments about Rivers of Light, a simple night show that is over budget on time and money. Building rides that are geared for young children. They ignored what I would consider to be the basic tenet of theme parks and that is to design for your guests instead of dictating to them. They haven't built anything for a while to interest adolescent children. We were told that MyMagic+ would make everything great and it simply wasn't. It's just been a morass of bad or questionable decisions. The bad thing is that people say, "They need to fix this quickly!" We need to understand that they cannot change this quickly. I think that it is matter of reigning in the cost overruns, particularly for ride creation, and starting to define the parks in ways that are true to their theme. Then, start building rides that make sense for the park receiving something new. Focus on building DHS out to a fully-formed park with more than four new rides.

It's a lot like the car manufacturing industry. Some manufacturers made poor automobiles and just figured that the population would buy the cars for the badge on the front of the car. People started saying, "No, I want quality, efficiency, and these types of things." Until the manufacturers made changes, they fell backward in market share but they are finally regaining position.

Yes, I well remember your example of auto manufacturers. I had purchased a brand new Buick Regal in 1977. In 1981 I had to junk it because it had completely rusted out....They need to change their WDW management culture and Executive compensation system. DLR seems to have fixed their problems. I can understand why they wanted to divorce themselves from the WDW web. Looking at DLR, it's more similar to Universal Orlando than it is to WDW. No My Magic, no advanced dining reservations needed. Just enjoy your day instead of pre planning it. Kind of a unique vacation concept.

 

[IzzyB]

It feels like they lost their way at WDW, which many argued happened at DL more than a decade ago before self-correcting. Billions of dollars in MyMagic+ which isn't so magical. Underwhelming rides that went way over budget and didn't produce any satisfaction. The comments about Rivers of Light, a simple night show that is over budget on time and money. Building rides that are geared for young children. They ignored what I would consider to be the basic tenet of theme parks and that is to design for your guests instead of dictating to them. They haven't built anything for a while to interest adolescent children. We were told that MyMagic+ would make everything great and it simply wasn't. It's just been a morass of bad or questionable decisions. The bad thing is that people say, "They need to fix this quickly!" We need to understand that they cannot change this quickly. I think that it is matter of reigning in the cost overruns, particularly for ride creation, and starting to define the parks in ways that are true to their theme. Then, start building rides that make sense for the park receiving something new. Focus on building DHS out to a fully-formed park with more than four new rides.

It's a lot like the car manufacturing industry. Some manufacturers made poor automobiles and just figured that the population would buy the cars for the badge on the front of the car. People started saying, "No, I want quality, efficiency, and these types of things." Until the manufacturers made changes, they fell backward in market share but they are finally regaining position.

I agree, it is not a quick fix. Where I say something needs to be done soon is more a change in how they think. They need to realize they need to build new rides. I don't think it has to do with the type of rides they are building, but more with quantity of rides they have built over the last 10 years. If in addition to the FL expansion they had done a new ride in Epcot, AK, and DHS we would be having a different conversation today. But WDW thought Orlando was a mature market and stopped building rides.

I think at the heart of it, MM+ is not a bad system. I think it cost way too much for what they got, but it is not a bad system. The GP loves it and they love the little things like their names showing up in odd places, being able to use one band for all things, etc. What was bad about MM+ is that they did that and ONLY that. They needed to still build rides.

So I agree cost overruns need to be under control. I think budgets for NFL, MM+, and Avatar have been blown out of the water because of cost overruns and they need to reign that back in.

I have hope with TSL and SWL along with all the rumors floating around. But they need to think long term. I do disagree about placement. They need to loo0k at some of these lands that don't make sense for the world of today and just redo them. I would rather get some good new rides vs, them spending the next 15 years how they can make something more tomorrow looking or future looking. Just get new stuff so these parks aren't so lame.

 

[Galaxy Defender]

There is a certain magic that Disney has at its parks. I love the feel of MK, and EPCOT to a lesser extent. Unfortunately, magic does not replace substance. The other two parks to me do not have that magic feeling. All of WDW has been long neglected. DHS and DAK just do not have the substance to justify the price to go to each.

I actually feel a sense elf adventure at IOA. Not so much at USF. Both parks to me are at their best when you get in line for the attractions. Universal entertains me when I am in line. I feel they are the masters of lines worthy of the rides and entertaining in their own right.

Contrast that with WDW lines. I often feel more like I am walking through a museum. The interactive line elements only work if you happen to be stopped in line at that point.

People will always have their own preferences. Universal definitely needs to do more work on its parks, and they are. WDW is so far behind on this it is not even funny. But still they charge premium prices for a neglected product.

 

[Galaxy Defender]

This article is mainly about WDW causing much if its own problems by big price increases and AP changes, with Universal running the risk of making the same mistakes. Universal will likely be much smarter if it does change its AP offerings.

Big shock to me was this quote

The price for the cheapest Disney World annual pass with year-round access soared 23%

No wonder WDW AP holders are unhappy.

I did learn after this post the all year cheapest AP now comes with free parking, so a price increase is certainly justified. The Fool got me.

Is Universal Orlando Repeating Disney World's Mistake? -- The Motley Fool

 

[UAN17]

There is a certain magic that Disney has at its parks. I love the feel of MK, and EPCOT to a lesser extent. Unfortunately, magic does not replace substance. The other two parks to me do not have that magic feeling. All of WDW has been long neglected. DHS and DAK just do not have the substance to justify the price to go to each.

I actually feel a sense elf adventure at IOA. Not so much at USF. Both parks to me are at their best when you get in line for the attractions. Universal entertains me when I am in line. I feel they are the masters of lines worthy of the rides and entertaining in their own right.

Contrast that with WDW lines. I often feel more like I am walking through a museum. The interactive line elements only work if you happen to be stopped in line at that point.

People will always have their own preferences. Universal definitely needs to do more work on its parks, and they are. WDW is so far behind on this it is not even funny. But still they charge premium prices for a neglected product.

I'd note Islands as my favourite Orlando Park yet Disney just have a hold on me that I can't shake off. When there last summer I got a deep sense that WDW was stale, Universal was alive and vibrant, yet I'm looking forward go visiting both equally next year. I just love all the parks I guess, incl Seaworld and Busch, but all for different reasons.

As for my visiting habits - of 20 days I plan on spending 9 days Disney, 6 Universal, 5 Seaworld/Busch/Aquatica. I couldn't imagine now going to one and not the other 2....they all offer something unique for me.

 

[quinnmac000]

This article is mainly about WDW causing much if its own problems by big price increases and AP changes, with Universal running the risk of making the same mistakes. Universal will likely be much smarter if it does change its AP offerings.

Big shock to me was this quote

The price for the cheapest Disney World annual pass with year-round access soared 23%

No wonder WDW AP holders are unhappy.

Is Universal Orlando Repeating Disney World's Mistake? -- The Motley Fool

motley fool tends to be pro-disney anti Universal drivel for the most part. I wouldn't count it as factual information

 

[Galaxy Defender]

motley fool tends to be pro-disney anti Universal drivel for the most part. I wouldn't count it as factual information

Motley Fool is often click bait. But they are widely linked to, so the headlines are ready by many. Many of their their Disney stories have been taking WDW to task over attendance, neglect and price increases.

 

[GAcoaster]

I do not blame Universal or Disney for raising annual pass prices one bit. If it's too cheap, the park fills with local kids and becomes a babysitter with unsupervised groups making the experience unpleasant for those paying top dollar as resort guests or day guests.

Look at Six Flags versus Cedar Fair. Six Flags sells annual passes for just barely more than the price of a one day ticket. The parks are often filled with kids who have nothing better to do but hang out and create an atmosphere that can sometimes be less than desirable for those families who come to the parks. Cedar Fair sells their annual passes for nearly twice as much, but they don't sell nearly as many and as a reult their parks generally are cleaner, nicer, and more family friendly.

If you give away the gate to get people through the door in the hopes they will spend more money, it often doesn't work and you just run your business into the ground.

I remember I used to work in a night club and the nights where we had a cover charge, the riff raff stayed out and those of us who worked there made more in tips too. The nights with no cover you made no money because people so cheap they don;t want to spend money to get in don't spend much once their inside either.

 

[Frank Drackman]

One reason I feel WDW's attendance decline is associated with issues with foreign economies is that I feel they have been pushing AP holders away for a few years. I think they lost a lot of us over the years, but it was masked by the uptick in foreign visitors.

We are less than 3 hours away, so I don't consider us as local, but as a FL resident, we get the same offers as locals, but we also stayed on site (or at least in the area) when we would visit. I couldn't help but feel I was paying for things I wouldn't use (magic express), how parties like not so scary were a much better deal for a non passholder...deals like free dining were of no use to us as passholders.

Now some things normally wouldn't bother me. Things like waiting on a bus and seeing three EPCOT busses come while still waiting on the first MK bus were odd to me, but it wouldn't bother me until others waiting starting getting aggravated by it....it is these 'vibes' of others stressing while on 'vacation' that started to make my trips to WDW stressful...I got tired of people discussing fast pass strategies while heading to the parks...

Now just a comment about 'magic'. I'm not sure what IT is, but I certainly see it in others at UNI when I hand out near the entrance to Diagon or Hogsmede...seeing a whole family of British tourist (I'm talking three generations) enjoying a Butterbeer together...these are 'vibes' I am more relaxed being around!

 

[Disneyhead]

One reason I feel WDW's attendance decline is associated with issues with foreign economies is that I feel they have been pushing AP holders away for a few years. I think they lost a lot of us over the years, but it was masked by the uptick in foreign visitors.

We are less than 3 hours away, so I don't consider us as local, but as a FL resident, we get the same offers as locals, but we also stayed on site (or at least in the area) when we would visit. I couldn't help but feel I was paying for things I wouldn't use (magic express), how parties like not so scary were a much better deal for a non passholder...deals like free dining were of no use to us as passholders.

Now some things normally wouldn't bother me. Things like waiting on a bus and seeing three EPCOT busses come while still waiting on the first MK bus were odd to me, but it wouldn't bother me until others waiting starting getting aggravated by it....it is these 'vibes' of others stressing while on 'vacation' that started to make my trips to WDW stressful...I got tired of people discussing fast pass strategies while heading to the parks...

Now just a comment about 'magic'. I'm not sure what IT is, but I certainly see it in others at UNI when I hand out near the entrance to Diagon or Hogsmede...seeing a whole family of British tourist (I'm talking three generations) enjoying a Butterbeer together...these are 'vibes' I am more relaxed being around!

I just don't find being in the Disney parks to be an enjoyable experience anymore. I have little interest in riding many of their attractions, the sea of screaming snot monsters is annoying at best, the price of everything is irritating, and the planning is annoying. Have a magical day ixie::ears:ixie:

 

[Galaxy Defender]

Something doesn't seem right about WDW hotel occupancy claims. They have said that occupancy has been around 90%. They have also claimed that 90% is basically full due to lengths of stay, timing of people checking out, etc. Yet when I checked for one day on a weekend last month UO hotels listed as full but every WDW resort had rooms.

WDW is claiming "full" occupancy while attendance is declining. This would explain why profits are still good. On site guests tend to spend more. But this does suggest they are losing locals and offsite guests at a very high rare. These are the guests that are more value conscious. Once a business is not seen as a good value it is hard to shake that perception.

The locals are starting to feel less welcome and much less of a priority. Once they get out of the habit of going it will be very hard to get them to want to come back.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

Something doesn't seem right about WDW hotel occupancy claims. They have said that occupancy has been around 90%. They have also claimed that 90% is basically full due to lengths of stay, timing of people checking out, etc. Yet when I checked for one day on a weekend last month UO hotels listed as full but every WDW resort had rooms.

WDW is claiming "full" occupancy while attendance is declining. This would explain why profits are still good. On site guests tend to spend more. But this does suggest they are losing locals and offsite guests at a very high rare. These are the guests that are more value conscious. Once a business is not seen as a good value it is hard to shake that perception.

The locals are starting to feel less welcome and much less of a priority. Once they get out of the habit of going it will be very hard to get them to want to come back.

Sell through of what they have available. Whole buildings and wings are closed and can't be sold.

 

[Mad Dog]

Something doesn't seem right about WDW hotel occupancy claims. They have said that occupancy has been around 90%. They have also claimed that 90% is basically full due to lengths of stay, timing of people checking out, etc. Yet when I checked for one day on a weekend last month UO hotels listed as full but every WDW resort had rooms.

WDW is claiming "full" occupancy while attendance is declining. This would explain why profits are still good. On site guests tend to spend more. But this does suggest they are losing locals and offsite guests at a very high rare. These are the guests that are more value conscious. Once a business is not seen as a good value it is hard to shake that perception.

The locals are starting to feel less welcome and much less of a priority. Once they get out of the habit of going it will be very hard to get them to want to come back.

You can claim that when you shut down entire buildings and wings and list them as being closed for maintainence.So that effectively lowers your room base total. It's called playing with the numbers to make things look good. ( I see Test Track just posted the same. Great minds think alike)

 

[Mad Dog]

I do not blame Universal or Disney for raising annual pass prices one bit. If it's too cheap, the park fills with local kids and becomes a babysitter with unsupervised groups making the experience unpleasant for those paying top dollar as resort guests or day guests.

Look at Six Flags versus Cedar Fair. Six Flags sells annual passes for just barely more than the price of a one day ticket. The parks are often filled with kids who have nothing better to do but hang out and create an atmosphere that can sometimes be less than desirable for those families who come to the parks. Cedar Fair sells their annual passes for nearly twice as much, but they don't sell nearly as many and as a reult their parks generally are cleaner, nicer, and more family friendly.

If you give away the gate to get people through the door in the hopes they will spend more money, it often doesn't work and you just run your business into the ground.

I remember I used to work in a night club and the nights where we had a cover charge, the riff raff stayed out and those of us who worked there made more in tips too. The nights with no cover you made no money because people so cheap they don;t want to spend money to get in don't spend much once their inside either.

You make some real good points. One example. Pittsburgh built it's baseball stadium with only 38,000 seats while the former stadium had 68,000. The concept was billed as the lesser capacity would increase demand, since tickets were harder to get, and it's worked quite well. Second, I had a bar/restaurant long time ago. It's common knowledge in the business that you keep your prices up to get a better customer base and keep the riff raff out. Low prices get the wrong type of customer that scares the better paying customers away. ...Those basic lessons work in other businesses, like theme parks. ...You just need to be careful that you don't reach the tipping point where you lose a lot of your good customer base. That's where this becomes an art.

 

[SeventyOne]

Big shock to me was this quote

The price for the cheapest Disney World annual pass with year-round access soared 23%

No wonder WDW AP holders are unhappy.

Is Universal Orlando Repeating Disney World's Mistake? -- The Motley Fool

Can't believe I'm in the position of defending the Rat, but that increase came with the added benefit of free parking. At $20(!) a pop now, that added up quickly. This was much more a restructuring of the AP program than a simple pay hike. As it currently stands, even my "mac daddy" AP works out to about four visits to MK with parking through the year if I paid individually.

As an AP I am disturbed by the nickle-and-diming (preferred parking) and insane price hikes in the parks themselves ($9 Yuengling). But I don't think AP prices are all that out of line.

 

[bob albert]

You make some real good points. One example. Pittsburgh built it's baseball stadium with only 38,000 seats while the former stadium had 68,000. The concept was billed as the lesser capacity would increase demand, since tickets were harder to get, and it's worked quite well. Second, I had a bar/restaurant long time ago. It's common knowledge in the business that you keep your prices up to get a better customer base and keep the riff raff out. Low prices get the wrong type of customer that scares the better paying customers away. ...Those basic lessons work in other businesses, like theme parks. ...You just need to be careful that you don't reach the tipping point where you lose a lot of your good customer base. That's where this becomes an art.

Let's be honest. The pirates not sucking is what really worked. The stadium didn't have a whole lot of fans in the seats early on before the team got better. It's not like any of the new stadiums are as big as the old toilet bowls. It's a great stadium, but I think being that small has little to do with it.

A side note. Motley fool articles often sound like they are written by a computer program.

 

[Galaxy Defender]

Can't believe I'm in the position of defending the Rat, but that increase came with the added benefit of free parking. At $20(!) a pop now, that added up quickly. This was much more a restructuring of the AP program than a simple pay hike. As it currently stands, even my "mac daddy" AP works out to about four visits to MK with parking through the year if I paid individually.

As an AP I am disturbed by the nickle-and-diming (preferred parking) and insane price hikes in the parks themselves ($9 Yuengling). But I don't think AP prices are all that out of line.

That is good to hear. I would never get an AP anywhere without free parking. More bad reporting by Motley Fool.