Pandora: The World of Avatar Announcement, Construction, & Preview Discussion

[GAcoaster]

The discussion turned to an attendance spike in Orlando from this.

 

[Jones14]

I agree. I think the only possible downside is that there is going to be such an impressive shift between day time and night time that people might not see it in all it's glory with Animal Kingdom being a half day park, even when this opens.

I'm thinking that if Animal Kingdom can pull the numbers Disney is hoping it will, that the park will become an (almost except during peak seasons) full day park simply by the nature of guests having three more lines to wait in. The wait times for current attractions could remain exactly the same and guests would still have to spend at least an extra one and a half to three hours to see everything, and that's assuming that they can get into the three new offerings (two rides and Rivers of Light) in under an hour apiece (read:fastpass.)

What's likely to happen, though, is that most current attractions will have a ten to twenty minute bump in their respective queue lengths throughout the day, so even if one can secure fastpasses for both new rides and Rivers of Light, they're stuck waiting for everything they used to get a fastpass for, the lines of which are going to be longer than before (possible exceptions being Tough To Be a Bug, Safari, and the shows).

Throw in both trails, the shows, Rafiki's, and the extra time that will undoubtedly be spent exploring the new shops and land outside of the physical attractions, and on a crowded day, you've got a packed day if you want to see it all. Even ride commandos would (assuming they get fastpasses for the safari and both avatar rides) now face the potential of hour long queues for Primeval Whirl, Dinosaur, Kali, and Everest if they can't knock them all out early enough in the day.

I think this is why Disney doesn't have short term (within the next two to three years) plans to keep plussing Animal Kingdom; the other parks obviously need more help, but even so, if the park can draw enough people in, those extra people will slow everyone else down, and by extension, give the park a "longer" day.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

I'm thinking that if Animal Kingdom can pull the numbers Disney is hoping it will, that the park will become an (almost except during peak seasons) full day park simply by the nature of guests having three more lines to wait in. The wait times for current attractions could remain exactly the same and guests would still have to spend at least an extra one and a half to three hours to see everything, and that's assuming that they can get into the three new offerings (two rides and Rivers of Light) in under an hour apiece (read:fastpass.)

What's likely to happen, though, is that most current attractions will have a ten to twenty minute bump in their respective queue lengths throughout the day, so even if one can secure fastpasses for both new rides and Rivers of Light, they're stuck waiting for everything they used to get a fastpass for, the lines of which are going to be longer than before (possible exceptions being Tough To Be a Bug, Safari, and the shows).

Throw in both trails, the shows, Rafiki's, and the extra time that will undoubtedly be spent exploring the new shops and land outside of the physical attractions, and on a crowded day, you've got a packed day if you want to see it all. Even ride commandos would (assuming they get fastpasses for the safari and both avatar rides) now face the potential of hour long queues for Primeval Whirl, Dinosaur, Kali, and Everest if they can't knock them all out early enough in the day.

I think this is why Disney doesn't have short term (within the next two to three years) plans to keep plussing Animal Kingdom; the other parks obviously need more help, but even so, if the park can draw enough people in, those extra people will slow everyone else down, and by extension, give the park a "longer" day.

Personally I think it's just as likely people won't spend any time longer in the park and the shows, trails, and Rafiki get hit hard. Then at night some people come by for RoL because they booked a FP for it.

 

[UAN17]

I'd love to know the makeup of guests i.e. foreign/local.

As a none frequent visiting international tourist I filled a whole day 8-7 in AK in 2015 with no issues. We didn't go on Kali, the birds of prey show was closed, and there was a nature trail we didn't do due to a late burst of terrible rain, but we had a few goes on Dinosaur, a few on Everest...saw Lion King and Nemo and it was a thouroughly enjoyable, well paced day.

I've said it before though what stops Animal Kingdom from being next level is the idea that you leave wanting to visit again very soon after for the things you missed, or didn't get to reride. It's a fun, full day, but that doesn't spill into multiple days like Islands, Universal, Magic Kingdom, and for us, Seaworld too.

 

[Andysol]

Animal kingdom will still be incredibly easy to tour if there aren't tiers. Rope drop everest- hit it 3 times. Go to Dinosaur which will be a ghost town at this time- ride it unlimited times (or once, if youre me). FP Safari, FP Banshee FP Boat- watch lion king and nemo while youre walking around. You could have done everything- some multiple times- except the shows by 11am. And if you want to do Kali- Just 4th FP that for after lunch on your way back to the hotel to nap and then head back.
Of course, that's not the point of DAK- it's all about checking out everything. But that'll be my strategy and it shouldn't be hard that way. If there are tiers- all will be different.

I've actually started the "park hopping" touring strategy of rope droping one park in the morning. Heading back to hotel once the crowds hit- and then grabbing a 4th FP at a different park and going there for dinner, my FP, and the nighttime event. It mixes things up better that way for me. 10-12hrs in one park is not an idea of a good time for me- Universal ruined me with the ease of getting back to your on-site.

 

[Jones14]

Personally I think it's just as likely people won't spend any time longer in the park and the shows, trails, and Rafiki get hit hard. Then at night some people come by for RoL because they booked a FP for it.

I don't know that I'd agree simply because the people who would go to those things now are still going to go to them. They may not see a huge increase in attendance, but the kinds of people who like seeing gorillas on vacation aren't going to stop enjoying seeing them just because there's two new rides a land over. And unless those people dislike rides entirely, there's no reason to assume that they wouldn't add Pandora to their itinerary, which would lengthen their day.

I agree that not everyone will stay longer, and I definitely don't think the park's going to burst at the seams with people, but to say that people who wait for half an hour to meet actors in Disney costumes won't spend more of their time in a park with two new rides and a show feels like a vast underestimation to me. And besides, the park doesn't need to be completely full for the entire day, just for more of the day than it is now. If Everest, Kilimanjaro, Flight of Passage, and Navi River are posting 30 minute waits at 9:30 (which I think is a reasonable assumption for the upcoming summer), that's two hours worth of people who aren't on their way to the Magic Kingdom parking lot, which is good news for Disney. Will some of those people come from Hollywood? Absolutely, but Fantasmic! and the Star Wars show will prevent too much cannibalization, and Epcot almost always closes at 9:00 anyway.

 

[Speed]

 

[Imperius]

Yeah this is giving me a reason to visit AK at night, not ROL.

 

[Speed]

Some great shots

 

[Parkscope Joe]

I don't know that I'd agree simply because the people who would go to those things now are still going to go to them. They may not see a huge increase in attendance, but the kinds of people who like seeing gorillas on vacation aren't going to stop enjoying seeing them just because there's two new rides a land over. And unless those people dislike rides entirely, there's no reason to assume that they wouldn't add Pandora to their itinerary, which would lengthen their day.

I agree that not everyone will stay longer, and I definitely don't think the park's going to burst at the seams with people, but to say that people who wait for half an hour to meet actors in Disney costumes won't spend more of their time in a park with two new rides and a show feels like a vast underestimation to me. And besides, the park doesn't need to be completely full for the entire day, just for more of the day than it is now. If Everest, Kilimanjaro, Flight of Passage, and Navi River are posting 30 minute waits at 9:30 (which I think is a reasonable assumption for the upcoming summer), that's two hours worth of people who aren't on their way to the Magic Kingdom parking lot, which is good news for Disney. Will some of those people come from Hollywood? Absolutely, but Fantasmic! and the Star Wars show will prevent too much cannibalization, and Epcot almost always closes at 9:00 anyway.

(What follows is a rough rough draft of a post I'm working on for OU, responses will be incorporated in and nothing is final. I will remove pronouns, clarify, and put into some logical order.)

We're disagreeing on the average guests' interest in these things. Since day one DAK has had issues with guests going attraction to attraction and skipping the smaller experiences. Disney has tried many ways to get guests into the trails and other non traditional experiences in the park to minimal success. I believe guests are looking for things to do and justify their time at DAK while at other parks (minus DHS) they're entertained till they leave. I think Avatar /ROL will be the attractions people are looking for more like what Mermaid, TSMM, and Monsters Inc were at DCA and not the day shifting experience Carsland/WoC at DCA was. Disney has set the DCA redo as the benchmark for this and it follows a similar model, but I don't think this will match their expectations (despite whatever they say in public).

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Disney's been looking for a very long time to add IP to the park, and in that plot in particular; one of their Harry Potter pitches was for that area. When Universal refused to give Cameron more than just one ride replacing T2 for Avatar, Disney came in and got the rights thinking they got a similar coup to Universal getting Potter.

But then Cameron became demanding, the movie didn't develop merchandise legs, the movie's public narrative switched, and the costs of design changes after bids went out kept adding up. Right now Rivers of Light and Avatar cost a billion dollars. Mermaid, WoC, Paradise Pier changes, BvS, and Carsland cost that much at DCA. Down the street the combined costs of Hogsmeade, Diagon Alley, and Hogwarts Express/London don't add up to 3/4ths of the cost of Avatar/RoL. This isn't Disney spending money effectively and putting more in for a better product, this is them constantly wasting it and not meeting expectations. Rivers of Light got a late game cash infusion because Staggs was not happy with what he saw, saying it was not the project he green lit for way less money.

Over the Christmas holiday Olivander's at USH made over one million dollars in wand sales in a week. ONE WEEK. That's the historic expectation and budgeting Disney has placed on Avatar/RoL projects and no one in their right minds thinks it'll touch that. There are people on here who say costs don't matter but they do; Everest didn't see the return on investment DAK was looking for and as such they passed on several new attractions and lands until Avatar was forced by the Board of Directors. I expect Epcot's additions and plans for the 50th will be hit the hardest if DAK and WDW don't see the returns they want.

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Because I question Disney's justification and expectations does not dampen my expectations. I am excited to see this project open, experience it myself, and develop my own critiques just as I have with Kong, Diagon, Mermaid, SDMT, and more. But we cannot ignore or escape the fact this land is deeply entwined with expectations of Potter level per guest spending boosts, attendance boosts, guests staying longer in the park, and that Disney's "sticking" it to Universal.

I expect there will be fans of this land, I expect people will say they prefer it to Diagon Alley, and I expect some will come for opening day as Avatar fans. I expect the attractions will be fun, engaging, and good. I bet the food will be good, the drinks boozy, and the merch creative. But that's not enough to guarantee continued expansion and updates to WDW.

 

[Mad Dog]

Well said .

 

[amityboattours]

Basically yeah, what testtrack321 said. The merchandise having legs in particular. I'd basically summarise that the whole concept of Avatar just doesn't light people's imaginations in the same way as other IP's.
Kids and daft adults like me openly fantasise about BEING a jedi or a wizard and going to those lands is the ultimate wish fulfilment. I've never once thought how cool it would be to be a 7 foot blue cat thing on an undeveloped jungle planet.
(I'm excited about the rides themselves and not trying to be negative for the sake of being negative here btw)

 

[UNIrd]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. These should sell like hotcakes.

 

[Alicia]

I bet you that rubber Banshee dolls sell about as well as the ugly rubber Dinosaur ride dolls they sell now - but they'll probably cannibalize the dino toy sales as it'll be the same 10 years old and under boys that want one - and parents will only let them have a either Carnotaurus or a Banshee, but not both.

Star Wars land will see decent food and drink sales when it opens (yay, Blue Milk I guess.) Although not sure they're gonna be able to increase merchandise sales more than they're already squeezing out of people at Launch Bay, Tatooine Traders, and every gift shop on property currently.

Unfortunately, it looks like to me, that nothing Disney has in the plans will meet (and certainly not exceed) the sales success of Potter at Universal.

But that's not to say they're not already crushing it currently with things they already have. Lightsabers are their magic wands, Mickey ears and hats are their robes (and they do have Jedi robes too,) and Mickey ice cream bars are their Butterbeer. And let us not forget the Mickey balloons, princess makeovers and dresses, and the fact that the Emporium (the entire left-side of Main Street now, minus one small hot dog restaurant) is always jam-packed with people clamoring to buy Disney merch all day long.

Disney shouldn't be trying to out-do Universal on food and merch, because in my mind, Potter was just Universal finally catching up to Disney. Sure, not one thing will be as popular for Disney as Potter is for Uni, but then again, nothing else at Uni is even remotely close to as popular as Potter is either. Uni may have Potter food and merch sales through the roof, but Disney has the culmination of their entire property of merch and food sales that far exceeds Potter, and all of Universal altogether.

It's sad to see Disney come out with LeFew's Brew to try and copy Butterbeer. Force Blue Milk down our throats. And who-knows-what will be served at Pandora... When they already are, and always have been, the more successful theme park destination. They shouldn't feel they need to be so reactionary when it comes to these things. It comes off feeling cheap, and transparent.

Now, as far as immersive theming. Yes, that they can compete with Potter as much as they want, because Diagon Alley is a game changer and is setting the bar for how immersive a land can really be. I just hope they don't try and come up with LeFew's Brew Ice Cream or something, it's just sad.

 

[SeventyOne]

I know we keep circling to this but......... not all IP's can be rides/lands; just like all great rides/lands doesn't need to come from a Top 10 IP.

I actually disagree slightly. I really think just about any blockbuster/kids movie (spoiler: they're the same thing--yes, even gritty Star Wars and Potter movies) can make at least a decent ride. The Hunger Games may be an exception, but even that's debatable.

However, very, very few IPs can support a land. With restaurants, shops, nooks and crannies to explore. To do so, probably have to have a literary base. Honestly, off the top of my head, I think it's Potter, LotR, Game of Thrones--all started as books. Yes, it took a lot of creativity to build WWoHP--but a big part of the reason something equivalent was never done in the 50 years prior is there were few if any IPs capable of supporting the concept before the Potter books.

 

[Alicia]

I actually disagree slightly. I really think just about any blockbuster/kids movie (spoiler: they're the same thing--yes, even gritty Star Wars and Potter movies) can make at least a decent ride. The Hunger Games may be an exception, but even that's debatable.

However, very, very few IPs can support a land. With restaurants, shops, nooks and crannies to explore. To do so, probably have to have a literary base. Honestly, off the top of my head, I think it's Potter, LotR, Game of Thrones--all started as books. Yes, it took a lot of creativity to build WWoHP--but a big part of the reason something equivalent was never done in the 50 years prior is there were few if any IPs capable of supporting the concept before the Potter books.

That's a good point. Many of the shop names and adverts on the walls of Diagon come from things mentioned in the books, not the films.

 

[SeventyOne]

Personally I think it's just as likely people won't spend any time longer in the park and the shows, trails, and Rafiki get hit hard. Then at night some people come by for RoL because they booked a FP for it.

Agreed. The Jungle Book--a beloved classic and current hit--combined with a cool Tree of Life show and an on-paper interesting nighttime safari couldn't pull an after-5 crowd to DAK. I don't see how walking around a new land will do a better job at shifting crowd patterns.

Potter far more popular than Avatar, and Hogsmeade is amazingly beautiful at night. Even that couldn't get people into IoA after 5. If it didn't work there, why would it work here?

 

[SeventyOne]

That's a good point. Many of the shop names and adverts on the walls of Diagon come from things mentioned in the books, not the films.

Every food item in the Wizarding World is taken from the books. Chef Jayson had copies of the books with post-it notes when he created the menus. That's a level of detail you only get from a series of books, not a single movie. Just one example, but illustrates the level of detail you need to create what feels like a real, living environment.

 

[Frogki]

World building in literature seems to be a bit more of a recent construct. Fantasy has been around a very long time but the concept of creating a working world within a story is something that's become more widespread in modern literature. With a wide reaching world crafted, a themed land can be created because you have the sheer volume of material to work with. It's interesting to consider the fact that without the detail in the books, the lands couldn't feel nearly as rich for HP. Avatar is a beautiful visual experience - but it's screen time wasn't dedicated to the little things we hope to try in a theme park representation. The Banshees are the largest "I have to try that!" experience I can think of and that's one ride...

 

[Mad Dog]

I think people think of AK as a zoo first & a theme park second. That perception, reinforced by a lack of rides, is difficult to change. That kind of ties into daytime success and night ho hum.