Disney Skyliner - Gondola Transportation System

[KevyB]

(Okay, so that was long and I wanted to add some more, so separate post! Lucky you!)

It seems to me that Disney is dooming this right from the start. It doesn't feel like they got all the information they needed before planning this all out. They know this gondola system was really the only decent way Universal was going to connect its current resort with its future resort and it seems like they were just trying to do it first so Universal would have to go a different route or look like a copycat. I mean, they are really selling this, making it all way more of a deal than it really should be. Especially since other options would've been easier. Why bother tearing down part of Caribbean Beach to build this Riviera? There's a huge plot of land right between CB and the Epcot resorts. They could have extended the Epcot waterways out into this new resort and on into Caribbean Beach and the Value Resorts. Yes, the current boat system is a pain, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have direct voyages from the resorts to each park, like they do over at Universal. Building a boardwalk from Caribbean Beach through the Riviera and over to the Epcot waterway would require less than a mile of walking. It's half a mile from the Animation parking lots to the DHS bus station! Heaven forbid they allow people a decent pathway to walk!

Anyhow, they're going with the Skyliners. While I think a lot of the reason they are doing this is to hurt Universal (Because we all know how Universal HAAAATES copying Disney, right? The second they announced those Minnie Vans Universal immediately started talking about a Minion version), I do believe this is also a test run to see its viability for the rest of the resort. Buses are expensive and their system is screwed up beyond repair. An extension of the Monorail will never happen. They even missed their window for light rail, as the cost for that has skyrocketed. And a waterway system is unrealistic for such a vast area with so many people. So this is it, but I think Disney has screwed it up so royally that it will seem like a failure and they will never expand the system.

First, and most important, the upcoming system is laid out poorly. If Caribbean Beach is meant to be the hub, it should be an actual hub. Meaning this crap of going over to Riviera before moving on to Epcot IS STUPID. Especially considering a line to Epcot directly from CB would have been less expensive due to the turning station. Without that unnecessary excursion, the line could've probably gone to Epcot with poles doing the turning. But that turn from the Riviera is so severe that a big station will be necessary (which Disney weirdly brags about in its press release). Heaven forbid Disney force its DVC people to take a line to the Caribbean Beach Station, or to get on a boat to get there, or - GASP - walk half a mile! 300 rooms and these options weren't better than screwing up an entire transit system? Idiots.

The absolute stupidest thing about that Riviera Station - where apparently people coming from the CB Station will have to exit and get in another line - is that people coming from the CB Station will apparently have to exit and get in another line. Disney doesn't say anything about this being a turn station, which would be a huge eyesore at the edge of the precious DVC building, and it's not at all realistic for that to be true as it would require Riviera guests to have to wait for empty gondolas heading to Epcot, which will never happen because EVERY gondola from CB to here will be going to Epcot. If this is the case, that means the Caribbean Beach guests going to Epcot will have to wait in two separate lines, and Art of Animation and Pop Century guests going to Epcot will have to wait in three separate lines. Now, the Riviera is going to be much smaller than all three of these resorts, so it'll be a minimal wait, but still. The best transit systems get you where you are going with only one transfer.

It's not as if that was the only option either. They could've had a hub in that empty area between all the resorts. They could've had direct lines from all three resort areas and two heading out from here to the two parks. Yes, it would've been a huge building, but who cares? It would be so much less confusing - the resort lines would all begin/end on the east side of the building with the theme park lines on the west side. Even the stupidest Disney guests could've figured out how to make their way to their desired park. Not only that, it could've also allowed for massive expansion. A single line out of the south of the building could've traveled to an Animal Kingdom hub, where people could head to that park, Blizzard Beach or one of the other resorts. This would've put all of WDW's biggest hotels on some sort of non-bus transit system.

Best case scenario, they end up only annoying the people staying in the Value Resorts. If it somehow moves people quickly in the busiest of times (see previous post), then the Caribbean Beach people probably won't be too annoyed at the CB-to-Riviera/Riviera-to-Epcot nonsense. But even in busy times, two transfers is a bit much to ask of people. Especially when THERE IS A DIRECT BUS RIGHT OUT IN THE PARKING LOT. That's Disney's biggest fear, I bet. If they displease these people, then they'll just go back to using the buses. Meaning they'll have built an expensive system that guests are refusing to use. And there's no way to fight this. If they limit the number of buses, then they'll get mad at that. If they don't limit the number of buses, then it hurts the viability of future Skyliners.

The dumbest thing Disney did in all this is they put the importance of the DVC people way WAY above those of the Value Resort people. Yeah, they aren't paying as much for their vacation, but there are about 14 times as many of them as there are DVC people using these lines. And they're the ones who will make or break the system.

 

[KevyB]

Passive-aggressive responses are so popular on these boards! Does it take too long to type out: "Hey, I have nothing of worth to add, so here's me being a moron! Please enjoy!"

Thanks! Maybe next time do something with a Minion!

 

[Scott W.]

Passive-aggressive responses are always impressive! "Hey, I have nothing of worth to add, so here's me being stupid!"

Thanks! Maybe next time do something with a Minion!

Actually, I'm at work and I don't have the time to give a detailed response to your crazy.

But hey, if you think Disney is only building the gondola system to hurt Universal, then good for you!

 

[KevyB]

I see your reading skills are nowhere up to your passive-aggressive gif skills.

While I think a lot of the reason they are doing this is to hurt Universal (Because we all know how Universal HAAAATES copying Disney, right? The second they announced those Minnie Vans Universal immediately started talking about a Minion version), I do believe this is also a test run to see its viability for the rest of the resort.

Clearly didn't say "only". CLEARLY. You think that Disney doesn't do things to hurt Universal? Disney didn't buy Mears to hurt Universal? Disney didn't build DHS to hurt Universal? Disney didn't kill the high-speed train to hurt Universal? Disney doesn't plan announcements and openings at times that will most hurt Universal? And how is the weather in Fantasyland?

Even hardcore Disney Doofuses have noted that Disney has become a company that no longer acts, but reacts to other theme parks. Disney Hollywood Studios, Animal Kingdom and California Adventure all owe their existence to the fact that similar theme parks existed nearby before they were built. This Skyliner thing is obviously another example of this business practice Disney revels in.

If you don't have the time to create an actual rebuttal, then save your teenage-girl replies for Instagram and wait until you DO have time to say something interesting.

 

[JoeCamel]

Angels will float down from the heavens and shoot rainbows out of their angelbooties if this thing gets anywhere close to 4000 an hour. Currently they top out at 5000 per hour USING 35-PERSON CABINS. IN A SINGLE-LINE SYSTEM. IN BOTH DIRECTIONS. So how exactly will 8-person cabins in a one-direction system cabins be able to manage this? Furthermore, when numbers like 5000-per-hour are thrown about, that also means people are getting on at multiple stations and few are riding it all the way to its terminus. For the Caribbean Beach Station to hit 5000 people per hour, that means 2500 people per each theme park line (people will not be heading to the resorts in the morning). 2500 people means 42 people have to be sent out on each line per minute. With 8-person gondolas, this means one car every 10 seconds. 10 seconds is the absolute minimum time these need to load (I've read "it takes 10 seconds to a minute to load each gondola"). Now we are talking about a clientele that has many strollers and wheelchairs, so not only will capacity shrink, but so will loading times.

The usual way these systems meet those load times is because they hit the stations and they basically become Omnimovers. They slow down enough to let people on, but they never stop. With all the strollers and wheelchairs and little kids here, that's not very realistic. I think the only way Doppelmayr will be able to hit those quick load times is to have a station like those seen on chairlifts, where the gondolas can be removed from the line, filled, and then put back on the line. The only way to do this and keep gondolas exiting the station every ten seconds is to allow many gondolas be removed from the line at once. So while one enters the station and people get off and other people get on, there are already several full gondolas in a queue to leave the station. That way, if there are any loading problems, it isn't affecting the car that's supposed to be heading out. Concept pictures of the Caribbean Beach Station do make it seem like this is how things will be done. Still, this still relies on the people using the system, and we've seen how some of them deal with getting on an Omnimover.

If they can't hit those 10-second load times, they are doomed. 20-second load times, with every gondola having 8 people in it, means only 24 people per minute leaving the station, and that's 1440 per line, 2880 PER HOUR. That's disastrous. Now do the math. The Value Resorts alone have more than 4000 rooms between them. At capacity, there's more than 12,000 people staying in those two resorts. Say one-quarter of those people are going to each park (not totally realistic with other places to go, but with Extra Magic Hours, one of these parks will have people lining up early, plus Star Wars will make DHS really popular when this opens, so let's just go with these numbers). That means 6000 people are going to Epcot and DHS just from here. Of course not everyone leaves at the same time, but if even half of those people get on the gondolas before opening, that's 3000 people leaving one resort all at about the same time. This isn't horrific because this line would be a straight up-and-back, meaning topping out at 4000 or so is highly attainable. But now those 3000 people are vying with the 1000-or-so people leaving Caribbean Beach (I don't know how many rooms they lost). Plus, those people who have just flown over from the Riviera, which is going to be fairly small (at first) so they're only adding one or two hundred people, so we'll ignore them. So now there are 4000 people wanting to go to two parks in one station. If they can only manage 20-second load times, some of those people will be in line for more than an hour. Also, say it's Early Magic Hour in DHS. That means the majority of the people in the CB Station will be going to one park and not the other. Even at 10-second load times, one line can only handle 2880 people an hour. Yes, this is a problem that only happens at park opening and park closing, but it's still one that can make guests psychotic.

Well that is a lot of text based on an assumption.
As @LiftBlog explained there can be multiple lines loading at the same time so the operator can dispatch every 5 seconds on a rope at 130 foot spacing (rope can travel up to 7 m/s) gives you 5000 per hour single direction.

Maybe you can run those figures back through your pocket calculator and come up with a one paragraph response that apologizes for calling other members morons!

 

[KevyB]

Well that is a lot of text based on an assumption.
As @LiftBlog explained there can be multiple lines loading at the same time so the operator can dispatch every 5 seconds on a rope at 130 foot spacing (rope can travel up to 7 m/s) gives you 5000 per hour single direction.

Maybe you can run those figures back through your pocket calculator and come up with a one paragraph response that apologizes for calling other member morons!

Multiple lines loading? You mean EXACTLY as I said? There can be MULTIPLE LINES going out of one station. But they aren't going to the same place. There will be ONE line leaving Epcot. And ONE line leaving DHS. Do you even read what you are quoting? The current WORLD RECORD is a line that manages 4500 people per hour. That means ONE system is currently capable of hitting 4500 people per hour. And it's an up-and-back system with 10-person gondolas. (I have not found any recent facts about the WDW system moving up from 8-person gondolas to 10-person gondolas, so I am sticking to the original estimates until I hear otherwise. Besides, the concept art makes them look a little small so I'm guessing 8-person gondolas since the 10-person ones are still new.) The previous record was a mere 3600-people-per-hour and those are hit by 10-person and 15-person gondolas, A FACT I READ ON LIFTBLOG.

All those numbers quoted on LiftBlog are pie-in-the-sky numbers that have yet to be reached in the real world. (You know, like how throughput is predicted for rides and then those rides never reach that throughput once they become reality?) You want to get all snippy about pocket calculators? They are LITERALLY numbers pulled out of a calculator, with every single input based on the fastest, fullest, largest, etc. Even that 7 meters-per-second isn't being hit on that record-breaking line. So the question is, do you think Disney is going to go with new-technology 10-person gondolas and not mention that? Do you think Disney is actually going to send these things out at top speed? Do you think Disney is going to be able to go through a turning station at full speed? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A TURNING STATION? They make the People Mover seem fast! Everything needed to hit these numbers THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN HIT is NOT going to be part of this system. Period.

That said, speed is really only important if they don't have enough gondolas on the line. The line from Caribbean Beach to DHS is about 1250 meters. At a pace of every 5 seconds, at 6 meters per second, the gondolas should be 30 meters apart, which means there will be 41 (ish) in each direction at max capacity. That means this line has to run AT MINIMUM 82 gondolas to maintain that throughput. In actuality, it'd be more like 100 gondolas, because the only way they would get close to 5 seconds is to have a lot of them in the station being loaded and queued for dispatch. Add to that the shorter Value Resorts line (approximately 900 meters) and then the much-longer CB-Riviera-Epcot line (approximately 2600 meters) and we are talking about 4750 meters of ropeway. That is 316 gondolas, plus the station extras, so we're talking about 350 gondolas. That seems like an insanely high number to me. I haven't found anything anywhere that lists the max number of gondolas on a system. But I doubt any of them are packing 350 gondolas.

Disney is asking Doppelmayr to give them the most throughput they can, but Doppelmayr can only build what Disney pays them to build. Disney has to be willing to pay for bigger gondolas and for way more of them. Do you think they actually will? Really?

 

[JoeCamel]

Multiple lines loading? You mean EXACTLY as I said? There can be MULTIPLE LINES going out of one station. But they aren't going to the same place. There will be ONE line leaving Epcot. And ONE line leaving DHS. Do you even read what you are quoting? The current WORLD RECORD is a line that manages 4500 people per hour. That means ONE system is currently capable of hitting 4500 people per hour. And it's an up-and-back system with 10-person gondolas. (I have not found any recent facts about the WDW system moving up from 8-person gondolas to 10-person gondolas, so I am sticking to the original estimates until I hear otherwise. Besides, the concept art makes them look a little small so I'm guessing 8-person gondolas since the 10-person ones are still new.) The previous record was a mere 3600-people-per-hour and those are hit by 10-person and 15-person gondolas, A FACT I READ ON LIFTBLOG.

All those numbers quoted on LiftBlog are pie-in-the-sky numbers that have yet to be reached in the real world. (You know, like how throughput is predicted for rides and then those rides never reach that throughput once they become reality?) You want to get all snippy about pocket calculators? They are LITERALLY numbers pulled out of a calculator, with every single input based on the fastest, fullest, largest, etc. Even that 7 meters-per-second isn't being hit on that record-breaking line. So the question is, do you think Disney is going to go with new-technology 10-person gondolas and not mention that? Do you think Disney is actually going to send these things out at top speed? Do you think Disney is going to be able to go through a turning station at full speed? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A TURNING STATION? They make the People Mover seem fast! Everything needed to hit these numbers THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN HIT is NOT going to be part of this system. Period.

That said, speed is really only important if they don't have enough gondolas on the line. The line from Caribbean Beach to DHS is about 1250 meters. At a pace of every 5 seconds, at 6 meters per second, the gondolas should be 30 meters apart, which means there will be 41 (ish) in each direction at max capacity. That means this line has to run AT MINIMUM 82 gondolas to maintain that throughput. In actuality, it'd be more like 100 gondolas, because the only way they would get close to 5 seconds is to have a lot of them in the station being loaded and queued for dispatch. Add to that the shorter Value Resorts line (approximately 900 meters) and then the much-longer CB-Riviera-Epcot line (approximately 2600 meters) and we are talking about 4750 meters of ropeway. That is 316 gondolas, plus the station extras, so we're talking about 350 gondolas. That seems like an insanely high number to me. I haven't found anything anywhere that lists the max number of gondolas on a system. But I doubt any of them are packing 350 gondolas.

Disney is asking Doppelmayr to give them the most throughput they can, but Doppelmayr can only build what Disney pays them to build. Disney has to be willing to pay for bigger gondolas and for way more of them. Do you think they actually will? Really?

No

 

[Teebin]

And he types and types and types...

 

[ThemeParks4Life]

Here's the kicker: these gondolas will rarely reach full capacity because not enough people will be riding them

 

[JoeCamel]

And he types and types and types...

His first post was like that too. Must be genetic

 

[rhino4evr]

What will take longer? Waiting for the gondola at 9am or reading KevyB's posts about them?

 

[Mad Dog]

What will take longer? Waiting for the gondola at 9am or reading KevyB's posts about them?

We need a post reading fastpass plus.

 

[rhino4evr]

We need a post reading fastpass plus.

Sorry, Tier 1 is only for the first 3 paragraphs of post 2. You will need to read the rest in full.

 

[Legacy]

Eh... people can be annoyed at the length of the posts, but I can see his point. The success of these things is (as it stands) entirely contingent on Disney being able to achieve a hypothetical "max ridership" that (taking postings here at face value) hasn't been consistently achieved. I get it, strictly from the calculus perspective. It's definitely something to look at.

That said, there are so many variables that will impact the ridership itself. There's going to be a percentage of people who won't ride them for myriad reasons. Those reasons can be fear (heights, enclosed spaces, other people, flying clowns), perception that it'll be too slow, or just routine. The discussion about "Can these things support the amount of riders it needs to" is kinda moot because there's still so many supplemental ways to get around the resort. Despite the PR push, I wouldn't be surprised to see buses and Minnie vans remain the primary mode for guests transport simply because it's easy and familiar.

 

[Nick]

You don't have just 5 seconds or 10 seconds to load. Due to how long the stations are, the doors can stay open long and LiftBlog pointed it out over on magic that on most systems and almost assuredly this one, you will have around 48 seconds to get in from door open to when doors need to close, which should be more than enough time. And as for ECVs, they can take Gondolas off the cables to load separate so the gondola line still is continuously moving ala an omnimover system.

Yes, I can see how at a theme park resort with a lot of strollers and ECVs the system may not fully realize it's capacity, but the capacity should still be very strong, nonetheless.

 

[Brian G.]

I see your reading skills are nowhere up to your passive-aggressive gif skills.



Clearly didn't say "only". CLEARLY. You think that Disney doesn't do things to hurt Universal? Disney didn't buy Mears to hurt Universal? Disney didn't build DHS to hurt Universal? Disney didn't kill the high-speed train to hurt Universal? Disney doesn't plan announcements and openings at times that will most hurt Universal? And how is the weather in Fantasyland?

Even hardcore Disney Doofuses have noted that Disney has become a company that no longer acts, but reacts to other theme parks. Disney Hollywood Studios, Animal Kingdom and California Adventure all owe their existence to the fact that similar theme parks existed nearby before they were built. This Skyliner thing is obviously another example of this business practice Disney revels in.

If you don't have the time to create an actual rebuttal, then save your teenage-girl replies for Instagram and wait until you DO have time to say something interesting.

Knock the attitude off. Last warning.

 

[JoeCamel]

Eh... people can be annoyed at the length of the posts, but I can see his point. The success of these things is (as it stands) entirely contingent on Disney being able to achieve a hypothetical "max ridership" that (taking postings here at face value) hasn't been consistently achieved. I get it, strictly from the calculus perspective. It's definitely something to look at.

That said, there are so many variables that will impact the ridership itself. There's going to be a percentage of people who won't ride them for myriad reasons. Those reasons can be fear (heights, enclosed spaces, other people, flying clowns), perception that it'll be too slow, or just routine. The discussion about "Can these things support the amount of riders it needs to" is kinda moot because there's still so many supplemental ways to get around the resort. Despite the PR push, I wouldn't be surprised to see buses and Minnie vans remain the primary mode for guests transport simply because it's easy and familiar.

The word from those who should know is there will not be buses from the resorts to the destinations these gondolas serve unless the gondolas are down. Same for the other direction

This is an initiative to remove buses from the roads, if it is successful I expect it to be expanded.

 

[SkiBum]

The word from those who should know is there will not be buses from the resorts to the destinations these gondolas serve unless the gondolas are down. Same for the other direction

This is an initiative to remove buses from the roads, if it is successful I expect it to be expanded.

Test and Learn phase. Test it, see how people like it and how much they use it. Then, improve it, expand it, or cut losses.

 

[rhino4evr]

serious question. If a little kid (or drunk adult) vomits or urinates in one of these. How will the service staff know? I mean they aren't going to check them before each guest, that would take way too long. Can you imagine walking into one of these, and realizing there are fluids on the floor with no where to go? It's not like the monorail where you can "avoid" the area. You are basically stuck until your next stop.

 

[captainmoch]

serious question. If a little kid (or drunk adult) vomits or urinates in one of these. How will the service staff know? I mean they aren't going to check them before each guest, that would take way too long. Can you imagine walking into one of these, and realizing there are fluids on the floor with no where to go? It's not like the monorail where you can "avoid" the area. You are basically stuck until your next stop.

These are small enough that CMs will just be able to eyeball it. If they see bodily fluids, don't load guests onto it.