Marvel Movies/TV and the MCU Future

[Jerroddragon]

I wanted to create a thread because of the interesting year (and a half) the MCU has had.

While to me no film has been bad, the perception is that quality of the MCU is downward compared to what has come before it. Along with now FX artist coming out and saying they aren't being given enough time from Disney to make the best effects possible. I wanted to see what other's are thinking and share my own thoughts

So far for me I have loved Thor 4, The Dr Strange Episode in What if, Spiderman No Way Home, Moon Knight and Falcon And Winter Soldier.

I liked Dr Strange 2, Shang Chi, Ms Marvel (except the finale....) Wanda Vision and Loki

The rest I can take or leave. For me I would rather them have less but up the quality to have every film try to be Winter Solider Quality , and while many want a "goal" to me I think the themes of most the films and shows are great, its the execution that is what they need to work on. Wanda, Falcon, Winter Soilder and Dr Strange I think do a great job showing the characters post End game but other things in their films or shows got in the way of showing off how great their arc's are, in my opinion.


Some links below for some articles on what I'm talking about or referring to, so what are your thoughts and hopes?

Captain America 2 Ruined the Trajectory of the MCU With One Phrase

The Russo Brothers once said they wanted to make Captain America: The Winter Soldier "Honest Trailer proof." Here's how that affected the MCU.

www.cbr.com

Thor: Love and Thunder Is More Proof Marvel Needs a Phase 4 Goal, Fast - IGN

We’re approximately 50 hours into Phase 4 of the MCU but we're still not sure where it’s going.

www.ign.com

Multiple VFX artists speak out against Marvel’s unrealistic demands

Over the past few years, Marvel has seen some backlash for the visual effects in their films and television shows. We saw this as early as 2018’s Black Panther, in which many pointed at the third act’s VFX as a big hindrance, and the criticism has plagued Phase Four as Marvel Studios expands its...

www.flickeringmyth.com

Why It’s Now Okay To Say MCU Movies Are Bad

The MCU is not above criticism.

screenrant.com

MCU Producer Confirms Phase 4's Central Theme

Marvel Studios producer Richie Palmer discusses what he thinks the central theme of Phase 4 in the MCU is.

thedirect.com

 

[AlexanderMBush]

Civil War is the better film than Winter Soldier
--------
To me, Phase 4 is a Phase of Choices and Consequences, and that in every project, we have seen the element of Choice, and consequence come fully into place. I'll give some examples (with some spoilers for recent projects).

In NWH, Peter's confronted by the choice of Spider-Man and how it affects others, and when the lines are blurred between the two realities are made to the public, the consequences of his double life are plain to see with the death of Aunt May, and him deciding to wipe the MCU Universe of his identity. To show how he has to realize that being Spider-Man, puts the people he loved and loves, at risk.

For Eternals, it is of the choice of the duty of the team when confronted by their final objective, and how each member confronts that. We've seen Eternals affect MCU since Endgame, as noted by the Earthquake vibrations in Wakanda around that time (and I wouldn't be surprised if we get updated on that with Wakanda Forever), and with the death of Tiamut, it leads to multiple paths potentially made in part by that choice. The first, being Arisham's judgement, will be determining the future of the planet; alongside judging how The Eternals viewed the world evolve and shift. You can additionally point to Dane Whitman, and in the death of Tiamut, he comes to possession of his family's sword, leading him to the path of the Black Knight.

And dare we forget with that, the potential implications of what a celestial's death means, which could potentially be what made the Mutant gene occur beginning with Ms. Marvel.

And of-course, the decision of Wandavision and Multiverse of Madness and how both are heavily connected, especially in part by choice and consequence. Wanda's endangerment of Westfield, her once possession of the Darkhold, and the incursions both triggered by herself and Strange (I refuse to think what she did in MoM didn't occur an incursion in and of itself). But on the other side of the coin, Strange's choice of Infinity War, leading to here with Multiverse of Madness of if there was another way Thanos could've been defeated, and his incursion of killing the other Strange.

Phase 4 to me feels like that and there's other characters that I would love to dive into but I'll leave it be.
__

As far as VFX, man do I hope Thor begins the notion of unionizing VFX workers for Marvel Studios because woof Taika, woof.

To cap this overtly long post, I imagine we'll be getting the rest of Phase 4 next week in dates and placement, as there are still projects that need to be talked about.

 

[Nick]

Pulling this over to this thread:

This might be the most nothing article I've ever read on the Internet. Obviously you could always dislike whatever movie you want to, MCU or not?

It's less about the being able to say "this is a bad movie" and more about "People should be allowed to say Love And Thunder was a bad movie if they want without the MCU stans coming for their throats on twitter". You owe nothing to Disney/Marvel and neither does anyone else. Just like any movie, it should be able to be said if you liked it or not. Imo, Captain Marvel wasn't a good film, but if you say that online, then you get called a misogynist by many within the fandom simply from having the opinion that it's not a good film.

The loud MCU fans on twitter are becoming like the loud Star Wars base on twitter, but in reverse. Star Wars fans tend to hate almost everything they hate with extreme vitriol. The MCU fans are loud defenders of the brand and it's characters after every project and it's growing more and more tired as we continue on and it's like, "so we're six movies into this phase and two of them are on the same level as previous phases". The TV shows have even got me feeling the oversaturation a bit and I do love the MCU, but can recognize it's not fully on the track right now. The MCU logo/fanfair used to be special, something you get excited for. Now we see it every week.

This is actually a great video essay explaining more of a science behind why people love the character of Black Widow but dislike Captain Marvel (so far), for example. Carol Danvers was a poorly written character in her movie whereas Natasha Romanov is almost perfectly written with great growth throughout the MCU. I feel like the MCU as a whole right now is suffering from some rather lower quality writing than we're used to.

 

[CoryLevy91]

I mean, it's the Internet. It's a vacuum for everyone to express their opinions. If you say x, obviously people will come out of the woodwork to say y. They'll always be people that defend one thing, they'll always be people that attack another. The key to having fun on the Internet is to state your opinion and then not really care about what happens to it after that. If people agree, cool, if they don't, also cool but at the end of the day just move on.

I haven't even seen a lot of the more recent MCU offerings so I have no inkling towards defending their product as a whole. The only things I've seen from Phase IV have been No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, Love & Thunder, Wandavision, Loki and Moonknight and I've at the bare minimum enjoyed all of those projects but I'm not gonna sit here and defend the MCU like it's bullet proof, I'm just going to present my opinions.

As for the topic, there's clearly an oversaturation happening within the MCU. The film slate alone is so rushed but when you throw in the streaming series and other odds and ends we're approaching a deluge of MCU content. I still enjoy the projects that I've seen so far but I just don't have that much interest in the things I haven't seen. Even despite the copious amount of content, I still think the biggest problem is not having that Thanos string to pull the entire MCU along. They shouldn't have just rushed into another big baddie threatening all of life itself but there needs to be something more tangible that we're building towards. As much as I even like the films that I do in this phase, they largely feel like sitcom episodes where the start, feature a conflict that is resolved before the final scene and we're back to square one as the end credits roll. Characters come and go but there's nothing major happening. The only inkling of such a thread I've gotten is the possible consequences of incursions and multiverse tampering hinted at in Loki and MoM and those don't even feel like big ideas, they feel more like possible future one off movies.

I'm having fun with these characters and their adventures but it just doesn't feel like we're building to a bigger event movie like we were in every previous phase.

 

[Nick]

I mean, it's the Internet. It's a vacuum for everyone to express their opinions. If you say x, obviously people will come out of the woodwork to say y. They'll always be people that defend one thing, they'll always be people that attack another. The key to having fun on the Internet is to state your opinion and then not really care about what happens to it after that. If people agree, cool, if they don't, also cool but at the end of the day just move on.

I haven't even seen a lot of the more recent MCU offerings so I have no inkling towards defending their product as a whole. The only things I've seen from Phase IV have been No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, Love & Thunder, Wandavision, Loki and Moonknight and I've at the bare minimum enjoyed all of those projects but I'm not gonna sit here and defend the MCU like it's bullet proof, I'm just going to present my opinions.

As for the topic, there's clearly an oversaturation happening within the MCU. The film slate alone is so rushed but when you throw in the streaming series and other odds and ends we're approaching a deluge of MCU content. I still enjoy the projects that I've seen so far but I just don't have that much interest in the things I haven't seen. Even despite the copious amount of content, I still think the biggest problem is not having that Thanos string to pull the entire MCU along. They shouldn't have just rushed into another big baddie threatening all of life itself but there needs to be something more tangible that we're building towards. As much as I even like the films that I do in this phase, they largely feel like sitcom episodes where the start, feature a conflict that is resolved before the final scene and we're back to square one as the end credits roll. Characters come and go but there's nothing major happening. The only inkling of such a thread I've gotten is the possible consequences of incursions and multiverse tampering hinted at in Loki and MoM and those don't even feel like big ideas, they feel more like possible future one off movies.

I'm having fun with these characters and their adventures but it just doesn't feel like we're building to a bigger event movie like we were in every previous phase.

I think we seem to agree on almost everything you bring up. My only point is there's a lot more people saying y when you say x in any sort of negative way regarding the MCU in Phase Four than in prior phases.

 

[quinnmac000]

The Russo Brothers have indicated that Marvel and Disney under Chapek is extreme IP management and people will get more than enough Marvel via TV and movies as well as Star Wars this decade.

I think the issue with Phase 4 is none of the films provide audiences the escapisms that the first films provided. Iron Man came out providing us a brighter look on life while we were going through tough times. The big bad at the time in the first few movies were one and done with hopes and where the "good guys" won in the end. It was what people needed worldwide and it resonated and gained an audience in which we wanted to continue to see more. Now, we live in a time of chaos and uncertainty and these films don't really distract us from those issues or provide commentary on it unlike arguably the most marvelesque show on television, the Boys.

That's why each of these films and shows not having that finality, that sign of hope, but consistently giving out feelings of Chaos and uncertainty is detrimental to the brand. That's why Everything,everywhere, all at once succeeded and the Russo Brothers are understanding.

 

[Nick]

I’m a big proponent of hating on Chapek, but the MCU and Star Wars having endless amounts of shows is an Iger issue that we now have to live with and Chapek is calling the shots.

The Russo’s are right though, Disney is on their way to killing TWO beloved entertainment brands and they see an opening in the marketplace coming up. We get double the MCU content now with Disney+ and are coming up on our 13th MCU project of phase 4 - more than Phases 1 & 2 combined already.

If you cut out the seven shows, not only do the movies feel more special, it also simplifies things. Just watch six movies from the past year and you’re caught up. The only movie I thought was just straight up bad was Thor 4. The Eternals had a lot going on but a lot worked character wise. As a whole movie it was messy, but I at least saw the vision. Black Widow was a good enough Action -Adventure movie, Strange 2 I enjoyed quite a bit, and Shang-Chi and No Way Home were genuine delights.

Am I feeling great about phase 4 so far if it’s only the six films and we ignore that shows exist? No, but I’m feeling a lot better than getting hit with 39 (mostly mediocre) live-action episodes over six shows. I thought these shows were initially a breath of fresh air and we were able to get some MCU content that was a bit more grounded and get to spend more time with characters who had mostly been secondary to this point.

After awhile though, each show just sort of starts to blend into another and they all feel the same, which I think is why I like Ms. Marvel so much. It not only had an undeniably charismatic lead, but it felt bubbly and like a teen show should feel. I would've watched that show if it was just a teen comedy and there was no super powers involved and it was just about Kamala, Nakia, Bruno, and Kamran growing up and going to school.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

Perhaps a good aspect to ask: what if things operated like this?

- One D+ Show with 7 Episodes for Early half
- 3 Films (One for Early Half, One for Mid, and One for Late Half
- One D+ Show with 7 Episodes for Late Half
- Animated project in between all that

Prioritize the quality of the D+ shows, while also not intentionally over stuffing the entire period of time with Marvel? Would allow an Animated project to act as a cool down as well.

 

[Nick]

Perhaps a good aspect to ask: what if things operated like this?

- One D+ Show with 7 Episodes for Early half
- 3 Films (One for Early Half, One for Mid, and One for Late Half
- One D+ Show with 7 Episodes for Late Half
- Animated project in between all that

Prioritize the quality of the D+ shows, while also not intentionally over stuffing the entire period of time with Marvel? Would allow an Animated project to act as a cool down as well.

While that would be more ideal, it has no chance of being implemented since Disney+ constantly is in need of content and D+ seems very unwilling to green light pretty much anything that that's not an established IP (such as Percy Jackson/Spiderwick Chronicles) or is Disney owned.

They could easily move the focus of D+ away from being so Marvel and Star Wars heavy, but they have to be willing to let in original ideas. For example, if I were Disney, i'd be trying to get The Duffer Brothers to do something for them. They have a strong relationship with Shawn Levy's 21 Laps and some original stuff is getting through that way, but they need more.

 

[CoryLevy91]

I think we seem to agree on almost everything you bring up. My only point is there's a lot more people saying y when you say x in any sort of negative way regarding the MCU in Phase Four than in prior phases.

That's just par for the course because it's such a hot property, arguably the most popular IP brand in the world right now.

 

[Lucky Planet]

phase 4 doesnt seem to have a clear goal and movies and shows dont feel connected anymore. they even contradict each other now....

loki makes it a huge gigantic deal that multiverses are dangerous and cannot exist ( to the point of arresting and banishing multiple lokis to die out. ) and it ends with a giant cliffhanger.
and this loki plot point contradicts dr strange 2.
multiverses should NOT exist if we go by the loki tv show... so this is starting to have the problems that DC has.
the MCU is no longer one cohesive property, (wandavision and dr strange 2 ALSO have conflicting points, contradictions)
i know you guys will reply to me on how phase 4 makes perfect sense, but, no. i cannot get over how Loki and Dr strange 2 literally contradict and try to erase each other. it feels careless. (and i actually loved loki until the awful ending, i actually enjoyed loki so much.)

and someone else can say "but bro, this is just entertainment, just turn your brain off and enjoy the action and enjoy the cgi!"
and i actually did this for thor love and thunder, Thor love and Thunder basically requires you to turn your brain off, just enjoy it like a saturday night live episode
but this phase 4 is disjointed, convoluted, contradicts itself. theres no clear goal anymore. the stories are getting sloppy. good cgi and action doesnt cut it
this isnt nitpicking either, loki, spiderman no way home and dr strange 2 literally cant be part of the same plotline.....they cancel each other out!
theres some pretty bad writing here.

Eternals has a plot point that basically makes THANOS a hero for wanting to destroy half of all life. eternals basically makes THANOS to be right in his plan, THANOS was right all along if we take Eternals into it
i mean....lol, whats happening???? ut:

 

[Nick]

Feel like this is probably actually a better place for the post I had on Marvel's week 2 box office drops than over in the Theatrical/PVOD thread. I know COVID really messed everything up so we'll never know for sure, but I think most people saw the MCU's story as being done after Endgame, which is why we're seeing lower box office and higher drop offs now. There's a huge base who will go opening weekend, but after that, you aren't drawing anyone new anymore when you're in your 29th movie.

The whole post is below, but i'll leave this one stat here regarding the average week two drops for every phase. The difference between Phase Fours average drop and the next closest phase is over 7%.

Phase One: -54.3% (6 films, 4,005 average screens)
Phase Two: -57.3% (6 films, 4,044 screens)
Phase Three: -55.2% (11 films, 4,296 screens)
Phase Four (so far): -64.5% (6 films, 4,318 screens)

I could bring up Top Gun: Maverick, the widest PG-13 release ever, and talk about how that film took until week 4 to fall to the box office grossing weekend that Thor 4 just had in weekend 2. But I realize Top Gun is a rare performing blockbuster.

So let's just look at the box office drops in the Thor franchise:
Thor - 47.2% (3,963 screens)
Thor: The Dark World - 57.3% (3,841)
Thor: Ragnarok - 53.5% (4,080)
Thor: Love and Thunder - 68.1% (4,375)

Let's go a bit further and look at the four Avengers movies + Civil War. Thor is in all of these movies as well:
The Avengers - 50.3% (4,349 screens)
Avengers: Age of Ultron - 59.4% (4,276)
Captain America: Civil War - 59.5% (4,226)
Avengers: Infinity War - 55.5% (4,474)
Avengers: Endgame - 58.7% (4,662)

Now finally, let's break down the average drop by phase. As you can see, Phase three films rivaled the phase one drops while Phase four films are seeing a drop over 13% higher at 68.5% on average. If you can't see something is off in Phase Four from how the rest of the MCU has performed, then you're just looking the other way at this point.

Phase One: -54.3% (6 films, 4,005 average screens)
Phase Two: -57.3% (6 films, 4,044 screens)
Phase Three: -55.2% (11 films, 4,296 screens)
Phase Four (so far): -64.5% (6 films, 4,318 screens)

 

[Jerroddragon]

I think two things I can think of because of the drops in later weeks

1) Disney plus...films coming out within 45 days, so many can wait that to see them again
2) Not as many big moments, not saying all films should have them but i saw infinty war and end game more then once because of the big moments

 

[Nick]

I think two things I can think of because of the drops in later weeks

1) Disney plus...films coming out within 45 days, so many can wait that to see them again
2) Not as many big moments, not saying all films should have them but i saw infinty war and end game more then once because of the big moments

I agree on Disney+.

I think the MCU gave us some big moments in No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness, but we don't need big moments in every movie. I look at Phase Four much like Phase One, just with a little bit of an established footing already there. Endgame was basically the end of an entire era that we had been building towards for 11 years. So in many ways, no matter how bad they screw up future phases, we'll always have The Infinity Saga that we can rewatch and enjoy.

What I mean about seeing Phase 4 like Phase 1 though is that we're sort of rebuilding in the universe. It doesn't need to be big. Those first MCU films didn't have "big moments" until The Avengers film. Phase 1 wasn't exactly the best either. The Incredible Hulk is low tier, Thor is mid, and Iron Man 2 is mid. Back then, we weren't concerned with a direction, either. We were just watching movies and it blew our minds that they connected like a TV show and lead to a team up Avengers movie. In many respects, when you look at it that way, the MCU is a victim of its own success.

These can't just be movies now, which increasingly is what Phase four has been. Mostly a collection of movies that exist in the same universe. Marvel has trained people to need to know a direction or where the stories are going so much that. it can't just be a collection of movies anymore. People want every movie to be bigger than the last and tbh, that's just not sustainable. I'm a critic of Phase 4 in a big way, but I also don't think it was ever set up to succeed (especially with having to create D+ shows now).

 

[Jerroddragon]

I agree on Disney+.

I think the MCU gave us some big moments in No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness, but we don't need big moments in every movie. I look at Phase Four much like Phase One, just with a little bit of an established footing already there. Endgame was basically the end of an entire era that we had been building towards for 11 years. So in many ways, no matter how bad they screw up future phases, we'll always have The Infinity Saga that we can rewatch and enjoy.

What I mean about seeing Phase 4 like Phase 1 though is that we're sort of rebuilding in the universe. It doesn't need to be big. Those first MCU films didn't have "big moments" until The Avengers film. Phase 1 wasn't exactly the best either. The Incredible Hulk is low tier, Thor is mid, and Iron Man 2 is mid. Back then, we weren't concerned with a direction, either. We were just watching movies and it blew our minds that they connected like a TV show and lead to a team up Avengers movie. In many respects, when you look at it that way, the MCU is a victim of its own success.

These can't just be movies now, which increasingly is what Phase four has been. Mostly a collection of movies that exist in the same universe. Marvel has trained people to need to know a direction or where the stories are going so much that. it can't just be a collection of movies anymore. People want every movie to be bigger than the last and tbh, that's just not sustainable. I'm a critic of Phase 4 in a big way, but I also don't think it was ever set up to succeed (especially with having to create D+ shows now).

The key difference is also what hero's they have left

If say this phase was where FF4 and Xmen came in from the start, I think that could have helped a little

This phase is about trying new things and seeing what works and what doesn't. Hopefully Moon Knight shows them that a great casting/performance can still make a difference, Miss Marvel can show them that leaning into culture can work out well, Wanda Vision hopefully let them see the best ways to tell a none traditional story. I also hope they learn from their mistakes like bringing in Kingpin just to have him lose isn't really that great, on the other hand I feel people love Zimo/Loki more then ever so letting villains get a little weird works sometimes and while I loved Thor they can learn maybe to blend comedy and serious stuff better in the future. I didn't hate the hammer/axe love triangle but some people thought it went wayyy too far, so fine learn from it.

 

[Nick]

learn maybe to blend comedy and serious stuff better in the future. I didn't hate the hammer/axe love triangle but some people thought it went wayyy too far, so fine learn from it.

Well that was just all Taika not being reigned in. His comedy is out there and as I said, he didn't actually write Ragnarok. I found the comedy in the movie so overbearing it made it really hard to take the serious moments actually serious.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Well that was just all Taika not being reigned in. His comedy is out there and as I said, he didn't actually write Ragnarok. I found the comedy in the movie so overbearing it made it really hard to take the serious moments actually serious.

I dont know why but for me Ragnarok I felt was under cut by humor but Thor 4...like I know some scenes are dumb like when Thor comes home and adds more armor on to the point its a joke but I felt the Jane stuff worked well and definitely understood Gorr....but I'm in the Minority so hope they learn how to blend better or just keep getting the same complaints for years

 

[Nick]

I dont know why but for me Ragnarok I felt was under cut by humor but Thor 4...like I know some scenes are dumb like when Thor comes home and adds more armor on to the point its a joke but I felt the Jane stuff worked well and definitely understood Gorr....but I'm in the Minority so hope they learn how to blend better or just keep getting the same complaints for years

Oh the Jane and Gorr stuff was the best part of the movie imo, but they also could've spent sooooooo much more time on Jane (or Gorr for that matter). It almost felt like the first 20 minutes or so with the GotG were just wasted time that could've been better time spent as extended time with Jane and maybe an extra scene with Valyrie. It felt like she fell to the background because there was just too much going on with too many characters (and then having scenes with Thor's hammers as if they are sentient only took away more, especially because they did that joke so many times in the movie.

 

[Lucky Planet]

i just realized that king Valkyrie technically doesnt add anything to the movie (in the sense that if you remove her, nothing changes) KORG and Valkyrie can be fully removed and you tweak the movie a little bit without them and nothing really changes. just like fully removing Zeus. Taika couldnt come up with anything important or substantial for Valkyrie, all she does is provide the ship .... and he gave so much screentime to himself.... . lol
yet i heard they cut a bunch of stuff with Gorr.... what the heck was he thinking lol.

 

[HalfGlass]