Reedy Creek Improvement District

[deathcab4cutie]

IT would raise taxes on Florida tax payers.

 

[Jerroddragon]

IT would raise taxes on Florida tax payers.

While they wont ask, I bet a vote then would be against this then.

Pretty much if this happen everyone loses

 

[HandsomePete]

This is more or less what I was saying back before the thread got locked - the $105M that “doesn’t get collected” is savings for Disney that would get passed to all Orange County residents (or property owners if we’re being technically correct).

Pretty much if this happen everyone loses

No, if Reedy Creek goes away Disney is absolutely a winner. That’s the hilarity of it all. The purpose of the district was to streamline permitting and building codes and inspections back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s when the Orange County office for those was like a single person. Disney doesn’t get much if any “benefit” from it now other than something like the Disney Springs garages being funded with municipal bonds.

 

[Nick]

No, if Reedy Creek goes away Disney is absolutely a winner. That’s the hilarity of it all. The purpose of the district was to streamline permitting and building codes and inspections back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s when the Orange County office for those was like a single person. Disney doesn’t get much if any “benefit” from it now other than something like the Disney Springs garages being funded with municipal bonds.

Whether this is the case or not, the real discussion is not even about Disney but how Orange County Residents would see a tax increase and RCID would probably be maintained much worse since it'd be maintained by the county. Things like the Disney Springs garages are things I would worry about long-term.

Again though, I think more than enough ground to stand on to sue and win a court case and keep RCID in tact.

 

[quinnmac000]

No, if Reedy Creek goes away Disney is absolutely a winner. That’s the hilarity of it all. The purpose of the district was to streamline permitting and building codes and inspections back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s when the Orange County office for those was like a single person. Disney doesn’t get much if any “benefit” from it now other than something like the Disney Springs garages being funded with municipal bonds.

Yes and no. Removing RCID makes Disney more into a political football with Orange County and Osceala County having more of a say in bureaucratic methods. Short term, there will be cost savings for Disney but it will also create new targets within the local area against Disney similar to Anaheim.

 

[Nick]

Short term, there will be cost savings for Disney but it will also create no targets within the local area against Disney similar to Anaheim.

100% this.

For any inconvenience that RCID causes Disney, it is FAR outweighed by the amount of freedom to do whatever they want without fighting with Orange/Osceola County about it. Having RCID there has saved them a lot of stress over the years.

Now is removing RCID in theory something maybe that is okay to debate about given it was a district created in 1967 for Walt Disney's EPCOT idea, never to govern a theme park resort? Sure. Could the District be revised so-as not to allow Nuclear Plants? Absolutely. But to remove it without a plan is reckless.

 

[SeventyOne]

IT would raise taxes on Florida tax payers.

Considering TWDC is a Florida taxpayer, absolutely,.

Whether this is the case or not, the real discussion is not even about Disney but how Orange County Residents would see a tax increase and RCID would probably be maintained much worse since it'd be maintained by the county. Things like the Disney Springs garages are things I would worry about long-term.

Anyone who tells you they know what the effect would be on Orange, Osceola or other Florida residents is engaging in political grandstanding. Because we have zero idea how this will shake out. Deals will be cut, more laws will be passed. As you say, sweetheart deals like the DS parking garages will no doubt go away, but ultimately the details have yet to be hashed out. WDW's obligations aren't going to be magically inherited by local counties without the Fat Rat coughing up a lot more in taxes and fees.

Again though, I think more than enough ground to stand on to sue and win a court case and keep RCID in tact.

Sorry Nick, not how legislatures work. They can have the worst motivation in the world--they often do--not grounds to overturn a law. RCID is a creature of statute, it can be changed by statute at any time. Even if it's just because the Legislature hates Mickey Mouse cartoons.

 

[sjago13]

If this does happen and Orange county gets the parking garages could they "close them" or charge for parking and force Disney to buy them back from them? They could at least recoup that cost that way.

 

[Nick]

Sorry Nick, not how legislatures work. They can have the worst motivation in the world--they often do--not grounds to overturn a law. RCID is a creature of statute, it can be changed by statute at any time. Even if it's just because the Legislature hates Mickey Mouse cartoons.

I understand that, but what they are doing is also against District law, so Disney has grounds to sue to say that this is not legal. Section 2a mentions the dissolution of a district and maybe i'm missing something, but what they are doing doesn't seem like it meets Florida law.

If this does happen and Orange county gets the parking garages could they "close them" or charge for parking and force Disney to buy them back from them? They could at least recoup that cost that way.

So Reedy Creek will be dissolved on June 1, 2023 if the Florida House passes this (which I have no reason to believe they won't). I can definitely see Orange County wanting to charge for the garages and as you said, I could see WDW spending the money to buy the garages back for a few million just to keep them under their own roof.

 

[lowbudget]

I wouldn't read too much into a single cherry picked sub section of state ordinance, there may be another section on the next page which allows the state to dissolve any district which does ______________ that they are standing on. Lawyers will undoubtedly sue and it may or may not stand.

If it does stand, and everything within the district now falls under county purview, then the building and permitting process likely just got a whole lot more expensive and time consuming. And I've got to think that permit fees in the county are greater than those within a special district.

I'd bet Disney would be willing to pay the $100M/year just to keep the county out of their hair.

 

[anihilnation]

One thing is for sure, and that is how this is a dangerous precedent, basically saying business have to agree with the ideology of the state.

One thing I wonder, since Disney is its own district, does that mean there is no sales tax apart from the Florida State tax? Also, since Disney is both in Orange and Osceola, that seems like it would be a mess..

 

[HandsomePete]

WDW's obligations aren't going to be magically inherited by local counties without the Fat Rat coughing up a lot more in taxes and fees.

How? I’ve never heard anyone actually articulate how Disney is saving on taxes currently, nor how “making their own laws” is to their benefit when Epcot building codes are more stringent than the rest of the county. The base case of dissolving the district is that Reedy Creek property taxes go away. What is the mechanism for Orange County to replace those that would just affect Disney? Let’s be honest, it’s not going to get dissolved, but the notion that this is what the legislature does is comedic. I’ll note they’re not touching the Lake Nona jobs tax credit.

If it does stand, and everything within the district now falls under county purview, then the building and permitting process likely just got a whole lot more expensive and time consuming. And I've got to think that permit fees in the county are greater than those within a special district.

I'd bet Disney would be willing to pay the $100M/year just to keep the county out of their hair.

There are contractors who don’t bid on Disney jobs because they don’t want to deal with Reedy Creek. Everyone erroneously thinks they’re a free pass on the permitting and inspection side because they don’t know the nuts and bolts of that stuff, like how often you have to do full shutdowns for emergency power tests on Disney property. Or something like:

Not to be that guy but do those tents pass code? Reedy Creek would laugh you out of the room if you proposed that.

 

[mainejeff]

I didn't read through all of this but I will tell you that I am done visiting Florida. We will take our tourist dollars to California.

 

[fryoj]

I understand that, but what they are doing is also against District law, so Disney has grounds to sue to say that this is not legal. Section 2a mentions the dissolution of a district and maybe i'm missing something, but what they are doing doesn't seem like it meets Florida law.




So Reedy Creek will be dissolved on June 1, 2023 if the Florida House passes this (which I have no reason to believe they won't). I can definitely see Orange County wanting to charge for the garages and as you said, I could see WDW spending the money to buy the garages back for a few million just to keep them under their own roof.

Unless Reedy Creek could sell them to Disney before transferring them to Orange County, I don't think OC'd sell them unless there's a major renegotiation on taxes concerning fire, road improvements, etc. Those garages would be a cash cow for the county. They'd probably need the extra income, so no need to unload them. That being said, if they played hardball, Disney could just build garages on the surface lots to undercut the reedy garages.

 

[JoeCamel]

Unless Reedy Creek could sell them to Disney before transferring them to Orange County, I don't think OC'd sell them unless there's a major renegotiation on taxes concerning fire, road improvements, etc. Those garages would be a cash cow for the county. They'd probably need the extra income, so no need to unload them. That being said, if they played hardball, Disney could just build garages on the surface lots to undercut the reedy garages.

Those garages are what secures the bonds that RCID collects fees and taxes from Disney to pay off. Ownership is not going anywhere per the underwriters and insurers of the bonds.
All it was is a large tax supported purse bought garages to facilitate commerce in a high dollar shopping zone. The state collects sales tax, I'm pretty sure RCID collects usage fees or something similar and gets a cut of the property taxes? Value is a bit more than if they had cows grazing there and a couple of people work in the area who pay their own fees and taxes with Disney or third party money paid to them and all that was generated by the construction and bonding to construct.
They are not going anywhere.

 

[fryoj]

Those garages are what secures the bonds that RCID collects fees and taxes from Disney to pay off. Ownership is not going anywhere per the underwriters and insurers of the bonds.
All it was is a large tax supported purse bought garages to facilitate commerce in a high dollar shopping zone. The state collects sales tax, I'm pretty sure RCID collects usage fees or something similar and gets a cut of the property taxes? Value is a bit more than if they had cows grazing there and a couple of people work in the area who pay their own fees and taxes with Disney or third party money paid to them and all that was generated by the construction and bonding to construct.
They are not going anywhere.

Not sure what I said gave the impression that I thought they were going anywhere. Right now RCID owns them. If RCID ceases to exist, they wouldn't just go to Disney. Some government agency, and I'm assuming it's OC, would take over their ownership and operation. If that happens, I can't imagine they wouldn't either charge a parking fee, or Disney for using them.

 

[Nick]

Unless Reedy Creek could sell them to Disney before transferring them to Orange County, I don't think OC'd sell them unless there's a major renegotiation on taxes concerning fire, road improvements, etc. Those garages would be a cash cow for the county. They'd probably need the extra income, so no need to unload them. That being said, if they played hardball, Disney could just build garages on the surface lots to undercut the reedy garages.

RCID doesn't dissolve until June 1, 2023, so there's plenty of time for them to do that if they want and I won't be surprised at all if we see it. I don't think think we'll be seeing any garages on the plat parking for a bit though. Disney has expansion plans for Disney Springs in which then they would add garages, but they need that land set aside for what is actually rumored to be a major proposed expansion to the area.

 

[Disneyhead]

On the next episode of DvsD...

 

[Nick]

Assuming this actually happens and goes into law next June, One very positive thing I can tell you right off the top of my head is that Orange County will take over RCID's Fire Station. The RCFD has been understaffed for YEARS and hasn't been expanded in size since the 80's, so to have a Fire Department that should hopefully actually be staffed correctly for the amount of people they serve would be a big improvement.

 

[JoeCamel]

Assuming this actually happens and goes into law next June, One very positive thing I can tell you right off the top of my head is that Orange County will take over RCID's Fire Station. The RCFD has been understaffed for YEARS and hasn't been expanded in size since the 80's, so to have a Fire Department that should hopefully actually be staffed correctly for the amount of people they serve would be a big improvement.

You know a bunch of people raring to be firefighters?
I would hope they can fully staff it but until they pay exceptional wages and opportunities for advancement I can only expect they will see the same staffing shortages most public service (police, fire, corrections) are experiencing. More money is the key but no politician ever advocated raising the funding for an entity because it was the moral and right thing to do.