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The State of Epcot

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There is no thematic logic. It doesn't fit at all!

Future World is supposed to be comprised of attractions focused on the sciences and the natural world, and our place in exploring those ideas. "Edutainment" attractions. That notion has gradually been watered down a bit over the years, but there hasn't been anything on the level of the sort of thematic break GOTG would bring. With a great deal of certainty, I can say that we're not going to be learning or exploring any subjects of meaning on the ride. It may end up being a really fun thrill ride, but unless Disney really surprises me, it's not going to belong in Epcot.
Here is Card Walker's dedication for Epcot:
To all who come to this place of joy, hope and friendship, welcome.

Epcot Center is inspired by Walt Disney's creative genius. Here, human achievements are celebrated through imagination, the wonders of enterprise, and concepts of a future that promises new and exciting benefits for all.

May Epcot Center entertain, inform and inspire. And, above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere.

Joy...hope..friendship...inspiration. That's all the GOTG right there. Yes, part of classic-Epcot was education. But that doesn't mean it was a successful or well-received part of the theme. The idea of a World's Fair of new technologies just doesn't work anymore. We all hold the future literally in our pockets and hands every day. To me, what Epcot is lacking is inspiration. Something to inspire people to be better and dream bigger.

Very similar to how Star Trek didn't necessarily teach people how to create the technologies of the future, but merely inspired them as to what was possible. Sci-Fi is a very underrated tool for getting people to expand their minds and open up new ideas. Quite frankly, I'd rather see Marvel shilling merch than Exxon trying to sell folks on clean oil. That would be a less creatively corrupt idea because Marvel would at least be honest about what's going on.

Now we could end up getting a Breakout-esque ride and this could all be moot. But at it's core, this could work for me, at least.
 
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Warning, sleepy mind induced long-winded diatribe incoming:

In all fairness, E.P.C.O.T. was originally meant to be a showcase community filled with real families that live there and work in cutting edge versions of commercial factories and businesses. Walt wanted everyone that visited the Magic Kingdom park (and future theme parks) to drive through the middle of the domed city center (where the weather was always perfect) just to show off what the future could look like. Everyone in town would use people movers to get from their homes to work, monorails to get to farther locations, and they would only need to drive a car on weekends when they needed to leave town.

"EPCOT Center" and now "Epcot" were never really what it was originally supposed to be, so why should it be pigeon-holed into something it never was now?

Having said that, of course I miss rides like Horizons, World of Motion, and even the Wonders of Life pavilion (oh yea I loved me some Cranium Command and Body Wars.) I even miss the more educational version of Test Track with the actual test track elements in it that actually taught you about testing cars. But edutainment attractions haven't been packing 'em in the way the other parks do with thrill rides or things based on existing things people already know, so the park has to evolve, unfortunately.

I like watching parks change and grow. I was terrified about Frozen Ever After, but now that it's there, it feels right. Maelstrom had its fans, but it was a weird ride with one good scene surrounded by a bunch of unnecessary nonsense (ocean oil rigs?) and a mild drop. It was usually a walk on. Frozen is a decent ride, very well themed inside and out, and is quite popular in the park. Why be mad that Epcot is getting some love? I for one welcome our IP overlords.

If it's a matter of evolve or die, I say evolve. Horizons and World of Motion were walk-ons in the early nineties. I would ride them over and over and over again. Part of that had to do with them being omnimovers, but more of it had to do with the un-re-ridability of storytelling based slow moving rides like that. Other people in my party would say, we already did that - it's boring - what else is there to do?

Dinosaur (CTX) teaches people far more about dinosaurs than UoE ever did, in just 10 minutes (including the pre-show) and it's a heck of a lot more fun. Maybe this new coaster will manage to teach us something. You never know. I do know that everything UoE currently teaches us we all already pretty much know. The common youngster of today probably knows more than the average adult in 1996 about where fossil fuels come from, what solar energy is, wind farms, etc. And when Bill Nye and Ellen fly over deep water horizon style oil rigs I don't think the audience is having the same awestruck feeling that was intended for that wide screen sequence, in lieu of the events of recent history.

What was my point? Probably something like: I'd rather Epcot change and be a fun and happenin' place than decay and die a slow death trapped under the weight of its own nostalgia. A little nostalgia is ok. We keep Spaceship Earth. We keep some version of Living With the Land. We keep the concept of learning about different cultures of many varied countries. But maybe we liven things up a bit with some fun and adventure. If for nothing else, at very least to keep the park alive and well, well into the future.

/End diatribe.
 
@AliciaStella UoE was about energy not dinosaurs. The lack of updates in 21 years does not deem an approach not relevant anymore. It's like saying a PowerBook Duo is proof laptops are pointless in 2017. No one is arguing keeping old attractions, the argument is about what should be in Epcot. Once everything is like the Magic Kingdom then why not only go to the Magic Kingdom?

------

I have two beliefs

1) Disney does not have the rights to open an attraction with Marvel characters in WDW
2) Disney is not stupid enough to play chicken
 
@AliciaStella UoE was about energy not dinosaurs. The lack of updates in 21 years does not deem an approach not relevant anymore. It's like saying a PowerBook Duo is proof laptops are pointless in 2017. No one is arguing keeping old attractions, the argument is about what should be in Epcot. Once everything is like the Magic Kingdom then why not only go to the Magic Kingdom?

------

I have two beliefs

1) Disney does not have the rights to open an attraction with Marvel characters in WDW
2) Disney is not stupid enough to play chicken
Guardians, shmardians. I'm thinking Tron Coaster!

And yea, as Bill Nye says on the ride, "dinosaurs are just cool." But that's the lamest excuse to have them on a ride about energy. Even the "fossil fuels" we use aren't made of dead dinos, they're made of plants and animals that existed 50 million years before the first dinosaurs, so there never was a decent reason for the dino diorama in that ride in the first place.

Not only does this edutainment ride not teach us anything about dinosaurs - yet that's the coolest part of the ride - what people might gleam from it isn't even true. And that's always bothered me, as a lover of all things dino.

There should be a middle ground. I was (attempting to) argue that Dinosaur actually teaches AND is fun. UoE is not fun. Dinosaur is a good mix of what's great about Magic Kingdom rides and what's great about (good) Epcot rides. It's actually edu-tainment, done right. Or at least in a way that goes over well nowadays.

(Interestingly, both of these attractions feature Bill Nye. Huh. Is he like Disney's go to dino guy or what?)
 
So often I think there's a false choice that's offered in relation to Epcot (and I'm not saying anyone here is doing this necessarily): either Epcot has to be full of boring rides where we learn stuff, or thrill/IP-based rides with no substance. I think both of these options are basically straw men.

I think it's very possible, for example, to design a GOTG ride that would be a thrilling E-ticket and also be relevant to some of the core themes of Epcot. I just don't believe Disney cares enough to bother doing it. I want the attractions offered in Epcot to stay reasonably distinct from the sort of attractions we can find in the other three parks. I don't want it to just become an overflow area for rides which there isn't enough space for in Magic Kingdom or Hollywood Studios.

Now, if Disney wants to attempt to reconceptualize Future World in order to make all the soon-to-be disparate elements fit thematically, they're welcome to try. However, I can't imagine a scenario where an all-encompassing theme can make rides like Living with the Land and Spaceship Earth fit comfortably under the same umbrella with a hypothetical GOTG thrill coaster that will almost certainly have a conventional adventure storyline lacking any scientific or cultural education trappings even on a lip service level.
 
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I have two beliefs

1) Disney does not have the rights to open an attraction with Marvel characters in WDW
2) Disney is not stupid enough to play chicken
While I agree that they're not allowed to open a Marvel attraction in Florida... I would say it appears that they've been playing chicken for a few years now. Or at least, testing the waters.

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Those Baby Groot sipper cups are at every festival stand for Flower and Garden right now. All over the parks. The Star-Lord and Baby Groot meet and greet will supposedly last through the summer (and maybe through the holidays if some reports are true,) making it the longest Marvel related thing at Disney so far. Guardians merch has been for sale at Mission: Space in Epcot for months.

Now I realize that when the Guardians preview was at Hollywood Studios they left off the 3D and effects used in the Disneyland version, because then it could be construed as an "attraction." I realize that in all of these cases the word "Marvel" never appears in conjunction with these events, previews, ads, or meet and greets. I realize what the terms of the contract are, as do most of us on this forum...

But can you really blame the general public, or Disney bloggers out there, for thinking it's perhaps possible that a Guardians of the Galaxy themed attraction is coming to Walt Disney World when we've been inundated with it for several years now?

There's a part of me that feels it might even be plausible that Disney puts out some concept art for a "new roller coaster attraction" coming to Epcot. And in it we see what might be the logo for Guardians of the Galaxy on the entrance. Everyone reports it as such on the web. Disney gauges Universal's response. Universal sends a letter warning them of a possible breach. And then Disney suddenly announces the name of the attraction, and it's Tron, or something, but definitely not Guardians. With as much Guardians crap as they keep attempting to shove into the parks, even I feel like that scenario is possible.

But it's not possible, if you read the terms of the contract, sure. But damn if it doesn't feel like Disney might think it's possible at this point.
 
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What would happen if they split GotG off from Marvel?
It shouldn't matter. The Guardians characters were not originally connected to the characters used by Universal or included in the contract, since the contract involved the Avengers characters, Fantastic 4, Spider-Man, X-Men, and ALL of their friends and foes.

Guardians were not connected to those storylines... that is until the Cinematic Universe connected them in 2014. The Guardians will appear in the Infinity Wars film(s). Their bad guy is now the bad guy in the Avengers series. If you ask me, any chance Disney had of making the argument that the Guardians are separate from the other Marvel characters (used by Universal) disappeared the minute the Infinity Stones were part of the first Guardians film, tying it to the Avengers and Marvel's larger storyline.

Even if someone else owned the Guardians, they are now "friends or foes" of the characters at Universal, so no one else can use them in theme park attractions east of the Mississippi.
 
While there is no limit to them offering merchandise or advertising their movies (but not on monorails that cross the plane of the parks LOL) they have definitely been pushing the boundary regarding M&G and other temporary events. I would think their argument over some of these is that they are funded by the movie arm of Disney for advertising purposes and not part of the "theme park" per se. A permanent attraction, however, is a much different animal and unless they have worked some agreement out that has been alluded to several times, I see no way they can do a GOTG or any other Marvel based property attraction in WDW.
 
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But can you really blame the general public, or Disney bloggers out there, for thinking it's perhaps possible that a Guardians of the Galaxy themed attraction is coming to Walt Disney World when we've been inundated with it for several years now?
I fully understand what the contract is, but it's not just bloggers... these rumors are coming from very reliable WDW sources. I wouldn't believe it possible if it came from anyone else.
 
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I fully understand what've the contract is, but it's not just bloggers... these rumors are coming from very reliable WDW sources. I wouldn't believe it possible if it came from anyone else.
Do you think Disney has permission to run the meet and greet they got going on now? Or are they operating under the impression that Guardians (and also Dr. Strange last time) are not related to the characters used by Universal, so they can get away with it?

According to the contract from Brian's "That Darn" article last year they're not supposed to have costumed characters:

East of The Mississippi – any other theme park is limited to using characters not currently being used by MCA at the time such other license is granted. [For purpose of this subsection and subsection iv, a character is “being used by MCA” if (x) it or another character of the same “family” (e.g., any member of THE FANTASTIC FOUR, THE AVENGERS or villains associated with a hero being used) is more than an incidental element of an attraction, is presented as a costumed character, or is more than an incidental element of the theming of a retail store or food facility;
When talking about the first time they did a Star-Lord character Brian states in the article:

As for the Star Lord character walk around Disney was probably testing the waters a little more liberally. The Star Lord character was a hired third party, the words “Marvel” were not used, and most importantly it was a closed, one night only party. Furthermore, the characters were not advertised to appear. In addition, Universal could very well have privately sent Disney a warning about the use of the character as no further testing has occurred.
Bold emphasis mine in both excerpts above. I think Disney's pushed the limits of the contract beyond what any of us expected, so I'm wondering if some dealings may actually going on? Or Disney's got some balllllls on them, no?

(And sorry for rambling on so much about this in the thread... I think I'm just trying to take my mind off of Volcano Bay stuff until the opening. But this is the stuff I lay awake thinking about at night.)
 
I wish Disney and Universal would just send out a join press release outlining what each can do in regards to Marvel. Even with the contract being broken down by @Brian G. and friends, it is still open to interpretation.
 
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Someone explain the logic of adding a Guardians ride to Epcot and how that fits at all...

It doesn't. In the all new IPCOT it fits just perfect.

We all know it doesn't go , just like frozen doesn't go. We all hate it, and I've grumbled along with the rest of em, but it is the direction TDO are going. Sad to say but I'd expect more and more of this.
 
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Warning, sleepy mind induced long-winded diatribe incoming:

In all fairness, E.P.C.O.T. was originally meant to be a showcase community filled with real families that live there and work in cutting edge versions of commercial factories and businesses. Walt wanted everyone that visited the Magic Kingdom park (and future theme parks) to drive through the middle of the domed city center (where the weather was always perfect) just to show off what the future could look like. Everyone in town would use people movers to get from their homes to work, monorails to get to farther locations, and they would only need to drive a car on weekends when they needed to leave town.

"EPCOT Center" and now "Epcot" were never really what it was originally supposed to be, so why should it be pigeon-holed into something it never was now?

Having said that, of course I miss rides like Horizons, World of Motion, and even the Wonders of Life pavilion (oh yea I loved me some Cranium Command and Body Wars.) I even miss the more educational version of Test Track with the actual test track elements in it that actually taught you about testing cars. But edutainment attractions haven't been packing 'em in the way the other parks do with thrill rides or things based on existing things people already know, so the park has to evolve, unfortunately.

I like watching parks change and grow. I was terrified about Frozen Ever After, but now that it's there, it feels right. Maelstrom had its fans, but it was a weird ride with one good scene surrounded by a bunch of unnecessary nonsense (ocean oil rigs?) and a mild drop. It was usually a walk on. Frozen is a decent ride, very well themed inside and out, and is quite popular in the park. Why be mad that Epcot is getting some love? I for one welcome our IP overlords.

If it's a matter of evolve or die, I say evolve. Horizons and World of Motion were walk-ons in the early nineties. I would ride them over and over and over again. Part of that had to do with them being omnimovers, but more of it had to do with the un-re-ridability of storytelling based slow moving rides like that. Other people in my party would say, we already did that - it's boring - what else is there to do?

Dinosaur (CTX) teaches people far more about dinosaurs than UoE ever did, in just 10 minutes (including the pre-show) and it's a heck of a lot more fun. Maybe this new coaster will manage to teach us something. You never know. I do know that everything UoE currently teaches us we all already pretty much know. The common youngster of today probably knows more than the average adult in 1996 about where fossil fuels come from, what solar energy is, wind farms, etc. And when Bill Nye and Ellen fly over deep water horizon style oil rigs I don't think the audience is having the same awestruck feeling that was intended for that wide screen sequence, in lieu of the events of recent history.

What was my point? Probably something like: I'd rather Epcot change and be a fun and happenin' place than decay and die a slow death trapped under the weight of its own nostalgia. A little nostalgia is ok. We keep Spaceship Earth. We keep some version of Living With the Land. We keep the concept of learning about different cultures of many varied countries. But maybe we liven things up a bit with some fun and adventure. If for nothing else, at very least to keep the park alive and well, well into the future.

/End diatribe.

I usually enjoy and agree with your posts, whilst I did enjoy this I do have to disagree to some extent.

The original mission statement by Walt was indeed to built his futuristic city. As we all know Walt passed on and his vision never came to fruition. Walts idea didn't die completely and his dream was kept alive in the incarnation we have today, kinda.

Anyways, although the original mission statement died with Walt, EPCOT did get a dedication plaque.

E. Cardon Walker said:
To all who come to this place of Joy, Hope and Friendship - Welcome.
EPCOT is inspired by Walt Disney's creative vision.
Here, human achievements are celebrated through imagination, wonders of
enterprise and concepts of a future that promises new and
exciting benefits for all.
May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire and above all,
may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to
shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere.
.

So even though I agree that the park doesn't follow Walt's vision of Epcot I still think they should stay true to the dedication, this is was made Epcot great and so different.

Yes it is a shame to see what has become of the place, especially future world, and I do agree that I would rather see it change that stagnate anymore, but not by unimaginatively shoe horning IP after IP into any nook and cranny of the place, especially when there's enough land there to hold all the ideas and plans they could possibly imagine :).
 
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I wish Disney and Universal would just send out a join press release outlining what each can do in regards to Marvel. Even with the contract being broken down by @Brian G. and friends, it is still open to interpretation.

The fact is, they don't even know--and likely disagree. When this contract was drafted, no one at Marvel, Universal or their law firms ever anticipated Rocket Racoon would be a recognized enough IP to justify a theme park presence. For that matter, at the time I'm sure no one considered Disney would ever even think of building a Wolverine ride.

That said ...
  • Starlord and Gamora are almost certainly available to build an attraction.
  • Rocket likely is available, tho that would be a game of chicken (character appeared 10 times in his first 30 years--4 of those appearances were in Hulk family books)
  • I thought Groot was probably off-limits--started in a horror comic, then used as a Hulk villain--but UOR lawyers either disagree or don't feel like spending millions over sippee cups and a month-long meet & greet. They might be more motivated by a permanent attraction.
  • Drax is likely off-limits, first appeared in Iron Man, closely tied into Thanos/Avengers; I'd note he has never been featured in a WDW meet & greet or special event.
  • All the villains and Mantis definitely off-limits.
Notice I said "build". Even if you can build a coaster featuring only the first three above, they remain Marvel characters, so you cannot advertise that coaster in a 300-mile radius. Atlanta to Miami, no tv, no radio, no billboards, no mailings or emails to APs, no Stacey Aswad promo video.

Dr Strange met & greet a good example of this. Very little cryptic hype, let DisTwitter do the work for them. You think it's a coincidence a ton of bloggers knew to be in the park that morning? But that's a risky strategy to take with an hundreds of million dollar E-ticket. That is why I don't believe any Marvel IP, even one theoretically open to use, will have a permanent place in WDW.
 
Put me in the "burn it down and start over" camp. the "original" epcot died years ago when all the main rides (Journey, Horizons, Living Seas, Spaceship Earth, World of Motion, World of Life) were either destroyed, replaced, repurposed, or remade. In my opinion ALL of these rides were replaced with something worse. With the exception of Test Track.

So I honestly think they need to re-do the entire "Future World" park. At this point, it just doesn't matter to me anymore. The Nostalgia of my trips in 1986-1992 is pretty much all gone. Hell, they could make it "NOT ACTUALLY" MARVEL Park for all I care. What's there is outdated and not in a nostalgic way.

Still kind of amazes me that they didn't fast track an inside out ride to replace Imagination. Which is the worst ride at the park by leaps and bounds.
 
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Put me in the "burn it down and start over" camp. the "original" epcot died years ago when all the main rides (Journey, Horizons, Living Seas, Spaceship Earth, World of Motion, World of Life) were either destroyed, replaced, repurposed, or remade. In my opinion ALL of these rides were replaced with something worse. With the exception of Test Track.

So I honestly think they need to re-do the entire "Future World" park. At this point, it just doesn't matter to me anymore. The Nostalgia of my trips in 1986-1992 is pretty much all gone. Hell, they could make it "NOT ACTUALLY" MARVEL Park for all I care. What's there is outdated and not in a nostalgic way.

Still kind of amazes me that they didn't fast track an inside out ride to replace Imagination. Which is the worst ride at the park by leaps and bounds.
What's sad is that classic Epcot Center can return to Future World. It could even be done with the use of IPs (thematically-appropriate ones). However, TDO won't be rational about including movies/TV shows into Epcot.

  1. Remake of Adventures Through Inner Space, a Cranium Command-style show themed to Inside Out and a 'Making of Me'-style show themed to Baymax as a WoL revival
  2. A Muppet Labs replacement for Universe of Energy (hosted by Bunsen & Beaker, focuses on teaching about the general areas of science: chemistry, physics, astronomy, zoology, biology, engineering, etc.)
  3. Imagination pavilion revived with a new trackless Figment/Dreamfinder dark ride and a new show in the Magic Eye Theater showing how the combination of imagination and knowledge throughout history have helped (and can still help) pave the way to new horizons (essentially an imagination-centric tribute to Horizons)
  4. Innoventions West replaced with an EPCOT Museum (from Walt's initial idea to present day)
  5. Innoventions East replaced with a new quick-service restaurant
  6. Mission: Space overhauled (randomization, 4K graphics, real interactivity, planetarium show hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson built between new WoL and current M:S)
  7. Spaceship Earth revamped with Morgan Freeman narrating, brand-new AAs and an actual finale.
  8. Seas pavilion redone as the Marine Life Institute (the dark ride now focusing on Mr. Ray taking his class on a 'field trip' through the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, Indian Ocean and Arctic Ocean)
  9. General updates to Living With the Land and a Circle of Life replacement (no clue what a good replacement would be)
  10. Weather-themed pavilion with an EMV dark ride placing guests into simulations of tornadoes, hurricanes, snowstorms, earthquakes, etc. (between Land and Seas)
While World Showcase isn't in bad shape (just needs more attractions like the Rat clone and UK attraction planned in the near future), Future World needs that level of TLC.

Meaning 'MK for grown ups' is likely to be Epcot's fate.
 
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