Diagon Alley USH

[Chris]

Here is a new concept I just created.  Now, I can imagine they can adjust the Gringotts show building to fit the space better, but this would allow for no reversal of the land as I noted from the previous pic.  Also you can see the plot of land guranteed for SLoP.

 

[Opie]

I agree, the Mummy location seems the most likely. I think there is room there for the Hogwarts Express to head up the incline to the studio tour area. I believe the train is pulled on cables anyway. Adding another way to get between lower and upper lots makes sense, too. Especially if the lower lot is expected to grow.

 

[Opie]

Welcome to the forums Opie! Well all of the Marvel attractions at IOA were put into place long before Disney's acquisition of Marvel in 2009. If I can recall correctly, Universal removed all merchandise relating to the Marvel attractions from the park as that money would just be going to Disney now. 

I'm a proud capitalist and I'm all for Universal going the extra mile to increase revenue, me using the word 'homage' was more from a pure theme park perspective and not from a business perspective, although it has many business implications. Obviously the Potter franchise is a cash cow and will continue to be a huge draw for crowds for years to come. However, I'm a big believer that variety is truly the spice of life. Obviously we live in a business world today that is most known for acquisitions and joint ventures, but it bothers me just a little bit that Universal would be so quick to use up SO much of the very limited Hollywood real estate they have to place more of a franchise they already have in the park. A franchise they had no part in creating or producing, when referring to the films. As a businessman myself, I understand that Universal worked hard to receive the Harry Potter license for theme park use from Warner Brothers and they want to put it to good use, but when the name of your theme park is Universal Studios and with both Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley in Hollywood taking up 50% of the parks total space, you might as well change the name of the park to Harry Potter World. 

Diagon Alley is actually great proof of this, and people like Wesker on here who were in Orlando around the time of it's opening can attest that the turnout wasn't exactly what Universal was hoping for.  I think Diagon Alley is an amazing land that Universal curated and Escape From Gringotts looks like an insanely fun ride! But Universal spent an estimated $400 Million to create a 2nd land for Harry Potter and after the first 2 months of its opening in Orlando, the attendance took a big dip and was nothing like the opening turnout that Hogsmeade saw. 

Thanks for the welcome! Lots of great info here. Also appreciate your opinions.

As far as park space, my understanding is that Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley together would comprise up to 15 total acres at USH. That's 4-7% of the park, depending on how you measure USH (between 230-415 acres). So, even with Hogwarts Express, that's nowhere near 50% of the park. Also noteworthy that some new park space will likely be used (currently sound stages).

It's been reported that Universal Studios Florida attendance grew by 17% in 2014, the year that Diagon Alley opened.

Diagon Alley would do some important things for USH. One would be to help absorb the influx of guests that Universal expects with the opening of Hogsmeade. It would also allow the deployment of a new proven ride without development funding. And, in my opinion, it would allow the creation of another path from the upper to lower lots.

Moreover, Universal recognizes that this is a unique property that will continue to gain interest given the three prequels planned and given that it is based on a literary property that kids will continue to read. Disney losing this IP to Universal, I believe, was a tremendous missed opportunity, and one that Universal is doing well to capitalize on. 

I want to add that I think the offering is very unique, in that it is more immersive than anything Disney offers (yet). I am a big fan of immersive experiences and I think this is the secret sauce here that others will try to replicate.

 

[HereWeGo]

Well, Disney didn't really "lose" HP to Universal but instead just passed on it. If I remember correctly, wasn't it offered to them first but they turned it down because of how much JK Rowling was asking for? Diagon Alley was something Universal HAD to do as part of their contract with Rowling (as is the rumored phase 3 of it over there). If this is true then it would make sense as to why Disney turned it down, because as Stylowtrix said, Disney doesn't want to have one single property dominating their parks. Universal, however was desperate for something new and huge and jumped at the chance for it, even though that meant sacrificing a lot of land to only one property. I could be wrong about this though. It's just what I remember reading about.

 

[Opie]

Well, Disney didn't really "lose" HP to Universal but instead just passed on it. If I remember correctly, wasn't it offered to them first but they turned it down because of how much JK Rowling was asking for? Diagon Alley was something Universal HAD to do as part of their contract with Rowling (as is the rumored phase 3 of it over there). If this is true then it would make sense as to why Disney turned it down, because as Stylowtrix said, Disney doesn't want to have one single property dominating their parks. Universal, however was desperate for something new and huge and jumped at the chance for it, even though that meant sacrificing a lot of land to only one property. I could be wrong about this though. It's just what I remember reading about.

Yes, my understanding is that Disney passed on it, which in hindsight was an extraordinary lost opportunity. Universal Studios worldwide attendance has grown 69% since 2009, while Disney has grown 13%. Disney reportedly turned JKR down due to lack of control and unwillingness to invest the amount asked. As far as "one entity dominating their parks," Star Wars land in Disney's Hollywood Studios is taking up the equivalent amount of property. Assigning 7% of acreage isn't much of a sacrifice for the windfall revenue generated from IPs done right.

 

[Wesker69]

In regards to Disney & Potter... it was a mutual passing. Disney turned it down due to not wanting to deal with Rowling's specifications (like the non-theme park friendly sized shops... anyone who thinks they're fine needs a reality check. They are the biggest clusterf**k ever). From what I understand, Disney had some great concepts for Potter, which included the being able to dine in the Great Hall concept (which was once rumored/planned for USH).

Star Wars Land isn't exactly dominating DHS with its new land, Toy Story is being added as well. To be fair, Disney has had a multitude of "never-built" Star Wars ride concepts (like the Tie-Fighter/X-Wing dueling coaster!!!) that have been shelved long before they owned the IP. We'll save the Disney expansion stuff for THAT thread though...

DA was a contracted thing, not a necessary build. Orlando lost an amazing non-3D, non-simulator, multi-experience ride because of it (Despite what anyone says, was superior to Gringotts). I doubt DA is a contracted thing for here, just Comcast feeling the need to clone something else before their heads explode rather than provide the park with something new/different.

Honestly, when it comes to the shops DA has... I'm pretty sure the stuff you can buy is the same stuff that was being sold for the past 5 years, with the exception of a few things (Gringotts merch). USH already sells way too much DM poop around the park (yes its popular, people love minions, but for the love of all things sacred, let there be some variety if you want people to empty their wallets!). The last thing we need to see is a location on the Lower Lot selling the same Potter crap we can buy already in more than one location. DA really is unnecessary in the grand scheme of USH's future expansion. It only adds 1 3D "thrill ride", (possibly 1 monorail/simulator depending on how/"IF" they add HE), another Ollivander's, and then more dining/retail. Sure its a well themed land, but that is just strictly cosmetic.

As Stylotrix said above, its called "UNIVERSAL Studios", not "WB Movie World" (which I'd love to go to one day).. People can say what they want about Universal not having enough big movie hits or whatever, but yet.. I'd rather see great/amazing rides created from less popular/less successful "Universal" movies than whatever is the latest flavor of the month IP. Fast & Furious is a great franchise, but got a really terrible Studio Tour attraction. I look forward to Nintendo, but again, I'd like to see more Universal IP's than... WB, Paramount, Fox, etc...

 

[Opie]

My point on the property size was that Star Wars land will constitute at least as high a percentage of DHS as would Harry Potter would at USH if Diagon Alley and the Hogwarts Express were BOTH implemented. So I agree, neither should dominate outright.

Most of the stores are new. In my experience I've found repeat ones like Ollivanders to be a benefit, as it helps reduce the load on both.

As far as wanting to see less popular Universal attractions instead, it seems the beancounters at Universal have come to the opposite conclusion. I don't fault either point of view. But, to call Harry Potter a flavor of the month though isn't accurate -- the IP has been in the public conscious for almost twenty years.

WWoHP is a game changing property, at least for the near to medium terms. DA is not all about Gringotts. When you get home, you aren't thinking about the ride. You're thinking about the world. We'll see if Disney can do that with Star Wars or Avatar. 

 

[Ryan]

Universal was in no way at all reluctant to build Diagon Alley even if it was built into the contract in some way. They wanted it, and spent more money than Rowling and WB insisted to get it open a mere four years after Hogsmeade.

(as for Disney, it's notorious that WDI and JK Rowling will both being divas and couldn't handle not having complete creative control, and that was more than just theme park logistics... their disagreement over the execution of the project was so gigantic that despite Universal pitching first [a ridiculously cheap retheme of Lost Continent's Enchanted Forest with Hogwarts attached] and disgusting Rowling, she actually went right back to them afterward and they quickly wisened [and shut] up)

But let's be serious here: outside of what's already at USH, what new/viable properties that they own have they not yet utilized? Audiences wanted Despicable Me and F&F attractions, they now exist. They had so many troubles at reviving the classic monsters franchises, and you're never going to top BTTF: The Ride. E.T. lives on through a gigantic parking garage that exists today. 

The recent success year that Universal had was made up of movies that targeted many demographics, and the ones viable for theme parks has already been tapped. The ones that aren't... well I don't think Uni has Fifty Shades of Grey, Ted and Straight Outta Compton rides on the drawing board (you can make your jokes here now). Pets is the next possible one... and it's coming.

 

[peasoupprincess]

Universal was in no way at all reluctant to build Diagon Alley even if it was built into the contract in some way. They wanted it, and spent more money than Rowling and WB insisted to get it open a mere four years after Hogsmeade.

(as for Disney, it's notorious that WDI and JK Rowling will both being divas and couldn't handle not having complete creative control, and that was more than just theme park logistics... their disagreement over the execution of the project was so gigantic that despite Universal pitching first [a ridiculously cheap retheme of Lost Continent's Enchanted Forest with Hogwarts attached] and disgusting Rowling, she actually went right back to them afterward and they quickly wisened [and shut] up)

But let's be serious here: outside of what's already at USH, what new/viable properties that they own have they not yet utilized? Audiences wanted Despicable Me and F&F attractions, they now exist. They had so many troubles at reviving the classic monsters franchises, and you're never going to top BTTF: The Ride. E.T. lives on through a gigantic parking garage that exists today. 

The recent success year that Universal had was made up of movies that targeted many demographics, and the ones viable for theme parks has already been tapped. The ones that aren't... well I don't think Uni has Fifty Shades of Grey, Ted and Straight Outta Compton rides on the drawing board (you can make your jokes here now). Pets is the next possible one... and it's coming.

Red Room Rock-It. The seatbelts are merely rope and zip ties.

Why are they NOT capitalizing on this? 

 

[Opie]

I have no insider info (just making this up), but for shoots and grins, here's one possible path for Hogwart's Express. The area at the bottom of the stairs next to Jurassic World would need London retheming, with a King's Cross facade next to Jurassic World. In this example, there could be soundstage 24/25 impacts. The distance of the train's path here matches that of the train in Orlando. The difference is the gradual incline, but I would think seatbelts would be enough. This path avoids switchback routes that I think would be problematic. The assumes the tracks would be elevated like in Orlando and lie off of one side of Kirk Douglas Dr. (probably the tree side). This passes the fire house -- so that may or may not be an issue. Also assumes that guests would have to take an escalator down to to the studio trams to board. Anyway, just food for thought. 

 

[Chris]

I have no insider info (just making this up), but for shoots and grins, here's one possible path for Hogwart's Express. The area at the bottom of the stairs next to Jurassic World would need London retheming, with a King's Cross facade next to Jurassic World. In this example, there could be soundstage 24/25 impacts. The distance of the train's path here matches that of the train in Orlando. The difference is the gradual incline, but I would think seatbelts would be enough. This path avoids switchback routes that I think would be problematic. The assumes the tracks would be elevated like in Orlando and lie off of one side of Kirk Douglas Dr. (probably the tree side). This passes the fire house -- so that may or may not be an issue. Also assumes that guests would have to take an escalator down to to the studio trams to board. Anyway, just food for thought. 

I can tell you exactly why this wont happen:

1. How would the tram access the lower lot from the upper lot area after Fast and Furious is complete?

2.  This would create a major problem for the firehouse located behind Jurassic Park to access anything.

 

[Opie]

^ The train operates on elevated tracks so the road should still be accessible. Here's an alternative (red) path if the Mummy ends up being the location for DA. This would only work if the elevation isn't too great. The train in Orlando is actually a full floor above ground level so perhaps that would reduce the incline. I don't know if there are regulations around cutting a new path up the hill. Others have mentioned a new clearing being done on the hill but I don't know where it is.

This image is a little crude but shows the elevation on the tracks:

 

[Wesker69]

Lets be a little realistic here, there was no way for Orlando to do Hogwarts Express as anything but a Potterail.. They had to have it elevated otherwise their employees would NOT be able to access the backstage areas- employee grill, wardrobe, Gate 2 (employee entrance/exit), HR, etc.. Not too mention the access road for production vehicles accessing the soundstages.

It will be interesting to see how they build "Supercharged" with HE being directly behind it.

Building a monorail on the side of a mountain is not as easy as it is on flat land, for obvious reasons. And besides the road needing to be accessible for the fire department, you forget that there is the Starway in the way of your original blue-line route. Not to mention "IF" DA was replacing Mummy, your route would not work. While the red-line route is more plausible, it still WON'T happen! Too many variables stand in the way, which is why the rumor of HE just being a simulator attraction exists.

And as crazy as it is to believe, the rumor of DA going on the Upper Lot where Waterworld is located, is actually a legit rumor being considered. It is obviously a "I'll believe it when I see it" rumor, but considering how this park is doing things lately.... we should not rule anything out (except for a HE to the Lower Lot, that we can rule out for now )​

 

[Jon Fu]

Building a monorail on the side of a mountain is not as easy as it is on flat land, for obvious reasons. And besides the road needing to be accessible for the fire department, you forget that there is the Starway in the way of your original blue-line route. Not to mention "IF" DA was replacing Mummy, your route would not work. While the red-line route is more plausible, it still WON'T happen! Too many variables stand in the way, which is why the rumor of HE just being a simulator attraction exists.

And as crazy as it is to believe, the rumor of DA going on the Upper Lot where Waterworld is located, is actually a legit rumor being considered. It is obviously a "I'll believe it when I see it" rumor, but considering how this park is doing things lately.... we should not rule anything out (except for a HE to the Lower Lot, that we can rule out for now )​

But again, if we're not going to rule out Diagon Alley replacing WaterWorld, why rule out Hogwarts Express?

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but how would they incorporate Diagon Alley into WaterWorld's current footprint with Take 5 right next door?

 

[Aaron]

WaterWorld is 2 acres in size. Diagon Alley is 7 acres in size. Even without the Hogwarts Express you would still need to remove everything surrounding the stadium, including Flight of the Hippogriff. There's no way you can readjust the land into that spot without cutting into the original Wizarding World. The redevelopment of the Upper-Lot was done to accommodate better crowd flow. Diagon Alley so close to the park entrance seems like something that would work against all this construction.

 

[Jon Fu]

Here's a rough edit of the Gringotts show-building on top of the WaterWorld plot:

 

[Chris]

Gringotts is not going onto Waterworld. Period.

 

[Opie]

If a train line was planned up Kirk Douglas Dr. it would not usurp the whole road, but go along side it like in Orlando and hopefully fit underneath the walkway overpass that Wesker mentions (challenging for sure).

But I agree that the red route seems more likely.

And yes, the simulator option is the easiest to deploy, but a train to nowhere sounds unattractive (would probably have to rework it completely -- perhaps Polar Express style at SeaWorld) but I think there's enough value in moving guests between the lots to seriously look into connecting them. I think getting the Express up from the lower lot is considerably more possible than fitting DA with Gringotts in the Waterworld location. Perhaps they are considering separating Diagon Alley from Gringotts. 

 

[chris.g]

Yeah, I can't picture Diagon Alley going into WaterWorld. The Upper Lot seems too congested at this point to even consider that option. I'm more than confident it will come to the Lower Lot in the not so distant future. 

 

[Opie]

AJ Hummel speculates that there are three options afloat:

(1) Diagon Alley in Waterworld location without Escape from Gringotts

(2) Diagon Alley in Mummy territory on lower lot (currently favored, he believes)

(3) Fantastic Beasts land (!) in Mummy territory (TBD upon popularity of film next fall)