Halloween Horror Nights 26 Discussion

[OrlandoGuy]

Hey guys! I've missed y'all.

Now that we're caught up, I wanted to throw in an anecdote. I get ROF w/ Express every year and I spend on average $25 per event night (3-4 nights usage) and between $100-150 in souvenirs total over my time there. Universal is getting maybe $250 out of me in addition to my ticket prices. Add in my husband, and they're getting about $350-400 over the ticket price for the length of the event.

Yes, the "annual passholders don't bring money in" is a fallacy, because the logic gets mixed up. I think IzzyB explained it the best so far. Just using you as an example, yes, you're spending $350-$400 over the course of 4 nights. That is undoubtedly a lot of money.
But look at the 1-day ticket user. One person is already paying $100+ just for admission. On top of that, there's the booze, food, and souvenirs all over the course of just one night. So while you still may be spending more through the course of the event, you're less profitable because you're doing it at the expense of filling the park with an extra body for three to four nights instead of just one...whereas if you were replaced by a newbie on those second, third, and fourth nights, in theory you would be buying more food, the same souvenirs, more drinks, etc. (emphasis is on the souvenirs here).
However, while this is true in general of most annual pass type things, HHN is a different beast altogether. All you have to do is stop in a Publix to get a ticket for up to 50% off, passholder or not. So it's clear that while, yes, the logical thing to think is that any sort of passbolder brings in less total revenue, HHN obviously cares less about that and more about filling the park up with as many people as possible and squeezing the pennies out of em there. HHN is basically a Six Flags-model venture. So I think it's not really fair to apply the general passholder theory to HHN, because it's 1. very local in nature, 2. only a month long and 3. a whole different animal from a full year-round theme park.
Personally, I'd love for them to cut down on FFP so I can get my empty weeknights back, but the only thing Universal will do about it IMO is raise the price until they see a drop in FFP purchases, trying their hardest to keep the number of passholders in the park each season as level as possible.

 

[Mad Dog]

Yeah, I agree with you. It's similar to the wedding reception advice I give people (Disclaimer: I'm not a wedding planner though . It's better to invite a lot of people than just inviting 100 to 200 people, if you want to make some decent money from gifts. You have certain fixed costs (Bridal dress, cake, hall fee, hall decorations, pre reception parties, bridal party gifts, etc.) that are there no matter how many people are present. Your only additional cost is the food/liquor per person. So once you get past paying for your fixed costs you're making a larger profit percentage....It's kind of the same with a theme park. There's certain fixed costs no matter how many people are there. The more that come, the better your profit. So, it behooves you to fill the park up as many days as possible. The only time that plan doesn't work is when you have to close because you reach capacity. But that rarely happens. Especially now that Universal has an additional house & opened up Diagon, there's more capacity than ever.

 

[s8film40]

whereas if you were replaced by a newbie on those second, third, and fourth nights, in theory you would be buying more food, the same souvenirs, more drinks, etc. (emphasis is on the souvenirs here).

Just to address the souvenir aspect of this, I would guess that one FFP visitor on average will easily spend more on souvenirs than multiple nights of average one night visitors. You have to keep in mind there is a huge majority of people who go to this as a fun way to hang out with their friends for the evening. They're typically doing this instead of going out to a club for the night. These type of people could care less about a Jack t-shirt, they're there to drink have a good time and go through 1 or 2 houses for the night.

 

[OrlandoGuy]

Just to address the souvenir aspect of this, I would guess that one FFP visitor on average will easily spend more on souvenirs than multiple nights of average one night visitors. You have to keep in mind there is a huge majority of people who go to this as a fun way to hang out with their friends for the evening. They're typically doing this instead of going out to a club for the night. These type of people could care less about a Jack t-shirt, they're there to drink have a good time and go through 1 or 2 houses for the night.

Right, but those are the same people that are going to get discounted tickets (unless they're really clueless). Which is why I said in my post, the nature of HHN doesn't really lend itself to the idea that annual passholders spend less theory. I'm agreeing with you in this case in case that wasn't clear, but for day-to-day operation, that^ is why the general concensus is that annual passholders spend less than the single ticket tourists.

 

[s8film40]

Right, but those are the same people that are going to get discounted tickets (unless they're really clueless). Which is why I said in my post, the nature of HHN doesn't really lend itself to the idea that annual passholders spend less theory. I'm agreeing with you in this case in case that wasn't clear, but for day-to-day operation, that^ is why the general concensus is that annual passholders spend less than the single ticket tourists.

Yes, I just thought it was worth pointing out that the theory of "FFP holders only buy souvenirs once whereas every single night visitor buys the same souvenirs every night" just doesn't hold up.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

HHN is basically a Six Flags-model venture.

I think this is a bad comparison.

Now separate form that I'm having a hard time figuring out your position. Multi-day pass holders don't actually spend less money per day than single day ticket holders because they can find cheap tickets at Publix? I'm lost.

 

[s8film40]

Now separate form that I'm having a hard time figuring out your position. Multi-day pass holders don't actually spend less money per day than single day ticket holders because they can find cheap tickets at Publix? I'm lost.

I think he's saying that single day visitors can get discounted tickets and not spend the full ticket price that many use to compare to FFP.

Honestly I don't think there is much to this point as the discounts aren't really that big unless you compare buying one of those tickets that can be used any night of the event on a Wednesday for example. I think another factor to consider is a very large number of those FFP tickets are sold to guests visiting just 2 or 3 nights. Universal basically tries to push as many people into the FFP model as they can and as a result the number of people buying FFP's doesn't equal the number of people maximizing the use of the pass and going 10-20 nights a year, it think in fact that's a fairly small minority.

 

[OrlandoGuy]

I think this is a bad comparison.

Now separate form that I'm having a hard time figuring out your position. Multi-day pass holders don't actually spend less money per day than single day ticket holders because they can find cheap tickets at Publix? I'm lost.

Not really a bad comparison...in terms of quality, yes. But Six Flags does the cheap annual passes too, with the bulk of their revenue coming from IN the park.

As far as the other thing...Im saying when even a single day ticket can be bought for very cheap just by being close to Publix, so saying they are more profitable, while this may be true for regular parks, doesn't apply to HHN, because even they may not be spending more than an FFP-holder on admission. Again, in theory those people (who only go once) are spending more IN park than multi-day visitors, but when HHN is largely a local event with a rabid fanbase, that kind of falls out the window.

 

[Mad Dog]

HHN is very successful and profitable. Except for a few tweaks, why mess with the winning formula. The old adage: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[s8film40]

Again, in theory those people (who only go once) are spending more IN park than multi-day visitors, but when HHN is largely a local event with a rabid fanbase, that kind of falls out the window.

I have a friend who went one night, he bought the discounted ticket. He and his group showed up around 9PM so they had already had a meal. The only thing he spent money on was a donut sundae at Lard Lad and even that was only because I had told him about it at some point in the past and he wanted to try it. Since he didn't regularly have admission to Universal this was his only time to visit the park so that one purchase really had more to do with that.

 

[s8film40]

HHN is very successful and profitable. Except for a few tweaks, why mess with the winning formula. The old adage: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yep, this is what I've said in the past. At this point anyone involved in the planning of HHN who suggests and implements changes to FFP is very likely putting their job on the line. With a very successful record if any year underperforms they will be looking for what changes had been made and if someone changed FFP they'll probably be looking for open positions as a ride operator at Disney.

 

[Clive]

I love all of the anecdotal evidence that seems to be driving these arguments.

If they weren't thinking about making major changes to the FFP program, they wouldn't be putting out these surveys. You aren't the expert here; the only one who has all the data is them.

 

[s8film40]

I love all of the anecdotal evidence that seems to be driving these arguments.

If they weren't thinking about making major changes to the FFP program, they wouldn't be putting out these surveys. You aren't the expert here; the only one who has all the data is them.

I agree about not having the data, even Universal doesn't truly have all the data on guest spending as much of it is untrackable.

If as you say they were planning to make major changes then by your theory they would have already done it a long time ago. They put these surveys out every single year. Of course every year they spark this exact discussion with one side claiming this is the end of FFP and then the tickets go up on the website and FFP is back with its usual price bump. Then there's the post HHN discussion of how after how this year went FFP won't be coming back.

On another note I really wish we could discuss this years survey, the confidentiality thing is kind of silly but oh well.

 

[Frank Drackman]

I'd hate to be the one that must decide the best ticket options and price points!

I think we all base our opinion on our experiences and then assume we are the norm or the average.

I'm sure if I lived in Orlando that I would know a lot of folks that get the FFP who attend a lot of nights without spending a whole lot of money.

I tend to see things as a Florida resident pass holder, but it is still a three hour drive for me, so we prefer to stay overnight when we go to Orlando. Currently, our best bet for HHN has been RoF. We've stayed on-site the last couple of years. When we've stayed at Cabana, it felt like there were more folks coming back to the hotel from HHN then there were folks who seemed to take advantage of early park admission.

The night we checked into the Hard Rock this year, Bret Michaels had a show that night in the lobby, but we still seemed to notice more folks staying there that were there for HHN.

Just the fact that they seem to try and require a couple of nights stay at the on-site hotels the time of year HHN is running, tells me they do a good job of drawing guest who stay in their rooms.

Now, my family could get by on four to five nights at HHN so we love the option of a pass that is valid all nights of the event for our stay so RoF has been a great choice for us. Beacause we have this option, we are incouaged to stay four nights, we have all our meals on property...het, we even buy merchandise during our stay. If they were to force us to go to FFP...we would upgrade to the one with Friday's, but not being able to go on Saturday might cause us to just drop Sunday and the dropping our stay to two nights and it might make more sense to use a different option than FFPw/F.

The one thing I felt they tried to tweak for 25 was that they are not happy folks are using RoF to attend the first three Saturday's and then upgrading to FFP. I just hope they don't take away an option for overnight guest to attend a full week of HHN nights...we may be pass holders, but we do spend money when we visit.

 

[Shucker]

I agree about not having the data, even Universal doesn't truly have all the data on guest spending as much of it is untrackable.

They have lots of data on this. They know exactly how many people are in HHN on a given night based on the tickets scanned at the gate. So they know the number of guests that are single day, FFP, ROF, express, etc.. They even have a pretty good estimate on those that are on-sight guests as well. Then they look at the receipts for all the services (alcohol, food, merchandise, games) to get a trend based on the type of demographic that is in the park. Doing this data collection for many years gives them a pretty good estimate on how the groups spend. I would be will to bet they have an actual spend number for each group, which drives their decisions on ticket offers. Any changes to ticket plans will made will be made to maximize the return as the park does not reach capacity very often.

 

[s8film40]

They have lots of data on this. They know exactly how many people are in HHN on a given night based on the tickets scanned at the gate. So they know the number of guests that are single day, FFP, ROF, express, etc.. They even have a pretty good estimate on those that are on-sight guests as well. Then they look at the receipts for all the services (alcohol, food, merchandise, games) to get a trend based on the type of demographic that is in the park. Doing this data collection for many years gives them a pretty good estimate on how the groups spend. I would be will to bet they have an actual spend number for each group, which drives their decisions on ticket offers. Any changes to ticket plans will made will be made to maximize the return as the park does not reach capacity very often.

Yeah, I know they do have a lot of data. My only point was even with as much as they have its not exact, it's still an estimation to a certain extent although it's a good one.

If I stop by a stand and buy a beer they don't know if I am a single night out of town visitor or a local FFP visitor.

 

[s8film40]

I think we all base our opinion on our experiences and then assume we are the norm or the average.

I'm sure if I lived in Orlando that I would know a lot of folks that get the FFP who attend a lot of nights without spending a whole lot of money.

That's the thing. As a local I certainly know how I visit and have my perspective. My normal course of action would be to assume that others visit in a similar manner. However, because this discussion comes up every single year and because it's kind of there in the back of my mind I actually do pay attention to this. More importantly than noticing what behaviours I see it's what I don't see. Other than the one person I mentioned above I have never seen anyone in any category go in and not spend a reasonable amount of money. Wether it be an acquaintance at work or someone I'm visiting HHN with on a regular basis out of the vast number of people I've known of to visit HHN this elusive person who goes in spends a few hours and manages to spend no money simply doesn't seem to exist.

 

[IzzyB]

I agree about not having the data, even Universal doesn't truly have all the data on guest spending as much of it is untrackable.

If as you say they were planning to make major changes then by your theory they would have already done it a long time ago. They put these surveys out every single year. Of course every year they spark this exact discussion with one side claiming this is the end of FFP and then the tickets go up on the website and FFP is back with its usual price bump. Then there's the post HHN discussion of how after how this year went FFP won't be coming back.

On another note I really wish we could discuss this years survey, the confidentiality thing is kind of silly but oh well.

Has anyone on here actually said they think FFP will go away all together? Because I don't think that is what anyone thinks. They may re-vamp the program or increase prices, but getting rid of it all together would be silly of Universal. Some things they could do is offer a cheaper 2 or 3 day pass and then increase the FFP price by a good amount. So this way they get the repeat business of high spenders only going a handful of times while getting rid of some people who like to go 10 to 15 times. Or they can reduce the number of days FFP is active for. There is a bunch of stuff they can do to try and limit the low spending people, but I don't see them getting rid of FFP anywhere in the near future. I hope I never gave that impression.

 

[JungleSkip]

Just popping in to say I've been saying for a while that the prices for things like RoF and FFP are way, way too cheap. Yea, it'll suck to pay more for the event should they go up, but Universal is leaving a lot of money on the table as well as contributing to a severely overcrowded event as-is.

 

[s8film40]

Has anyone on here actually said they think FFP will go away all together? Because I don't think that is what anyone thinks. They may re-vamp the program or increase prices, but getting rid of it all together would be silly of Universal. Some things they could do is offer a cheaper 2 or 3 day pass and then increase the FFP price by a good amount. So this way they get the repeat business of high spenders only going a handful of times while getting rid of some people who like to go 10 to 15 times. Or they can reduce the number of days FFP is active for. There is a bunch of stuff they can do to try and limit the low spending people, but I don't see them getting rid of FFP anywhere in the near future. I hope I never gave that impression.

The surveys from past years usually asked questions based on a pass that would be valid for the first or last half of the event. This led to speculation of the removal of a pass that would allow people to visit over the course of the event. I think others have pointed to HHN in Hollywood as an example. In any case this all seems counterintuitive to Universals actions, as you point out they could easily offer a 2 or 3 day pass but they don't. The reason for this is because Universal actually wants people there as much as possible, they really like those people going 10-15 nights because it creates extra revenue.

Just popping in to say I've been saying for a while that the prices for things like RoF and FFP are way, way too cheap. Yea, it'll suck to pay more for the event should they go up, but Universal is leaving a lot of money on the table as well as contributing to a severely overcrowded event as-is.

I agree it is a great value, I've calculated it out just from my experience and I essentially pay $1 every time I go through a house or watch a show. I don't think they're leaving money on the table though. If they created a super expensive FFP a very large percentage of those 10-15 night type people would simply reduce the amount of times they visit. After anywhere between 3-5 visits the value of a night at HHN significantly drops, those guests are just experiencing the same thing over again. I know for me and others I know the primary draw of the return visits is being able to take a laid back approach and enjoy the atmosphere and general excitement of the event, I don't need to go more than a handful of nights but I will if the opportunity exists. If the result of price increases makes people visit fewer times the net result will be lost revenue. This is the reason for those surveys they simply don't want to cross that threshold.