Universal's Epic Universe Wish List & Speculation

[DodgsonHere]

I dont know how much the 2 areas vary in size, but Lost Continent was still able to remain thematically coherent with a steady tone for many years when it included 2 giant thrill coasters and one kids coaster. If we’re to believe LC is the most direct comparison to Monsters as insiders have suggested before, I think the land will do fine with a coaster.

 

[OhHaiInternet95]

I'm sorry, but this is madness. Pirates and Haunted and Splash aren't beloved because they're old, they're beloved because they're masterpieces. Very few Disney visitors care deeply about the park's history, and fewer still are going to use it as an excuse to give an attraction higher marks on a satisfaction survey. If you built Pirates for the first time today it would score just as highly.

The idea that the theme park audience has changed in some profound, fundamental way is exactly as valid as any old man grumbling about "kids in my day..." It's a version of the same misconception that led Eisner to destroy EPCOT back in the 90s and it betrays a lack of basic cultural history knowledge. The truth is that coasters have always drawn audiences and have always been easy to build. What made Disney into an unprecedentedly successful resort - and what might do the same for Universal - are immersive, mostly indoor rides that mix skillfully modulated tone and well-told stories, presented through a variety of mediums, including elaborately set stages and advanced AAs. Building such attractions requires a tremendous level of genuine artistry - and audiences respond positively to that artistry, regardless of the year.

They are masterpieces but without already being grandfathered into the zeitgeist of pop culture before the franchise wars (that began to form with Star Tours in the late 80s and got kicked into hyperdrive with Potter), no, they absolutely would not be well received by the GP today. Legacy is correct. To get a more objective view that isn't skewed by said grandfathering, let's look at a non-Disney example of an original being replaced with an IP. How many people do you think prefer Merlinwood over Hogsmeade? How many people do you think would rather have Poseidon stay than it be replaced with Zelda?

I mean, you say that, and I very much hope you're right, but the rumored "story" of the land and dark ride from Screamscape -- as well as some of the leaked concept art (which could absolutely be outdated, certainly) -- doesn't fully remove camp from the list of tonal possibilities.

The description of Victoria's operation (and of the townspeople's attitudes towards it) gave me serious XS Tech vibes, so there's that.

 

[Casper Gutman]

They are masterpieces but without already being grandfathered into the zeitgeist of pop culture before the franchise wars (that began to form with Star Tours in the late 80s and got kicked into hyperdrive with Potter), no, they absolutely would not be well received by the GP today. Legacy is correct. Look how many people want the last truly original attraction at Universal to get replaced with Zelda.

You're confusing what the public wants with what the major media companies want. DISNEY and UNIVERSAL made a conscious decision to shoehorn film-based IP into everything. This was not the result of some shift among the general population but rather the result of a complex, interlocking series of developments relating to technological change, the restructuring of the corporations that drive the entertainment industry, leadership biases, and a healthy heap of board room myopia, group think, and arrogance. It's also necessary to remember that IPs can be developed and nurtured in ANY medium - they don't need to come only from film and television. Theme parks are more then capable of developing IPs that can jump to other media as Pirates and Jungle Cruise have and soon Haunted Mansion (again), Figment, and S.E.A. will. Strangely, Disney loses sight of this when developing theme park attractions.

As for Poseidon's Fury, I'm something of a theme park purist (evidently) and I desperately want it replaced by anything. Its a bad attraction and has been since it opened. That has nothing to do with the fact that it's an original property and everything to do with the fact that it is flawed at a conceptual level. Fantastic façade, of course - that can stick around.

 

[belloq87]

How many people do you think prefer Merlinwood over Hogsmeade? How many people do you think would rather have Poseidon stay than it be replaced with Zelda?

I think comparing some of the greatest dark rides ever built to Merlinwood and Poseidon's Fury (I'm a big fan, but still) is pretty apples to oranges.

The description of Victoria's operation (and of the townspeople's attitudes towards it) gave me serious XS Tech vibes, so there's that.

Which would probably be too tongue-in-cheek for what I'm looking for.

 

[Magic-Man]

I'm sorry, but this is madness. Pirates and Haunted and Splash aren't beloved because they're old, they're beloved because they're masterpieces. Very few Disney visitors care deeply about the park's history, and fewer still are going to use it as an excuse to give an attraction higher marks on a satisfaction survey. If you built Pirates for the first time today it would score just as highly.

The idea that the theme park audience has changed in some profound, fundamental way is exactly as valid as any old man grumbling about "kids in my day..." It's a version of the same misconception that led Eisner to destroy EPCOT back in the 90s and it betrays a lack of basic cultural history knowledge. The truth is that coasters have always drawn audiences and have always been easy to build. What made Disney into an unprecedentedly successful resort - and what might do the same for Universal - are immersive, mostly indoor rides that mix skillfully modulated tone and well-told stories, presented through a variety of mediums, including elaborately set stages and advanced AAs. Building such attractions requires a tremendous level of genuine artistry - and audiences respond positively to that artistry, regardless of the year.

I only recently rode Pirates/Splash/Mansion. Pirates is okay, Splash is bad, Haunted Mansion is good. They're far from masterpieces.

 

[OhHaiInternet95]

I think comparing some of the greatest dark rides ever built to Merlinwood and Poseidon's Fury (I'm a big fan, but still) is pretty apples to oranges.



Which would probably be too tongue-in-cheek for what I'm looking for.

Fans still beg for Beastly Kingdom, which LC (or at least, Merlinwood) was similar to, so I don't think it's far fetched at all. No the coasters themselves weren't super themed but you're telling me if Disney had an attraction with a queue like that which told an original story inspired by a Robert Frost poem and then replaced it with an IP, fans wouldn't be livid?

(For the record, my taste when it comes to dark rides seems to line up with yours.)

***

Also, how would that be tongue in cheek? That attraction was a masterclass in horror, IMO. The designers perfectly understood the genre, with a brilliant mechanism that enabled it to be scarier than many haunted houses.

 

[belloq87]

Also, how would that be tongue in cheek? That attraction was a masterclass in horror, IMO. The designers perfectly understood the genre, with a brilliant mechanism that enabled it to be scarier than many haunted houses.

I'm not knocking the attraction! I loved Alien Encounter, and it was scary, yes... but go back and rewatch the pre-shows. They were absolutely being knowing and satirical, as well.

My preference would be for the Monsters land to be relatively devoid of meta commentary.

I only recently rode Pirates/Splash/Mansion. Pirates is okay, Splash is bad, Haunted Mansion is good. They're far from masterpieces.

This is not really the thread for this discussion, but I'd be extremely curious which classic dark rides you would say are masterpieces of their kind if these three (I'd argue three of the very best) don't cut it for you.

 

[OhHaiInternet95]

I'm not knocking the attraction! I loved Alien Encounter, and it was scary, yes... but go back and rewatch the pre-shows. They were absolutely being satirical, as well.

Definitely. Even so, there was an overwhelming sense of menace and dread. SIR was genuinely frightening. Not the main thing to be afraid of but everything was perfectly building up--see this video for how important that is in the horror genre.

Full disclosure, I never experienced it (I would have needed to be institutionalized hahaha). But all I need is the POVs to let me know that it was horror perfection.

 

[DodgsonHere]

I only recently rode Pirates/Splash/Mansion. Pirates is okay, Splash is bad, Haunted Mansion is good. They're far from masterpieces.

Splash is a pure maintenance issue right now, it is one of the best rides ever created imo

 

[Magic-Man]

I'm not knocking the attraction! I loved Alien Encounter, and it was scary, yes... but go back and rewatch the pre-shows. They were absolutely being knowing and satirical, as well.

My preference would be for the Monsters land to be relatively devoid of meta commentary.


This is not really the thread for this discussion, but I'd be extremely curious which classic dark rides you would say are masterpieces of their kind if these three (I'd argue three of the very best) don't cut it for you.

Tbh I haven't ridden many. I'd classify Tower of Terror and Spider-Man as masterpieces. I also really like Blazing Fury at Dollywood, Spaceship Earth at EPCOT, and Men in Black at USF (although I'm not sure how many of these count as classics). Maybe I don't have the nostalgia on my side became I didn't grow up going to the parks. I dunno. And I actually really like Haunted Mansion! It's super charming and well thought out. I just wouldn't classify it as a masterpiece.

 

[belloq87]

I'd classify Tower of Terror and Spider-Man as masterpieces.
Spaceship Earth at EPCOT, and Men in Black at USF (although I'm not sure how many of these count as classics).

These are certainly very defensible!

 

[Brian G.]

I think what @OhHaiInternet95 was trying to say is that those rides are part of the nostalgia that Disney sells. For example, Kang n Kodos and Dumbo are the same type of ride but parents can't wait to take their children on Dumbo whereas no one blinks for KnK.

Pirates, HM, and Small World are obviously very good rides, but they are from a different time.

Ultimately, to circle this baby back on topic, Universal isn't in the business of building nostalgia at the moment. They want the "new new".

 

[Casper Gutman]

I think what @OhHaiInternet95 was trying to say is that those rides are part of the nostalgia that Disney sells. For example, Kang n Kodos and Dumbo are the same type of ride but parents can't wait to take their children on Dumbo whereas no one blinks for KnK.

Pirates, HM, and Small World are obviously very good rides, but they are from a different time.

Ultimately, to circle this baby back on topic, Universal isn't in the business of building nostalgia at the moment. They want the "new new".

I actually think Universal is very aggressively trying to build nostalgia and, thus, generational loyalty - its something which, as you say, Disney has in huge amounts and Universal will need to compete in the long term. That's largely the reason behind the Legacy and (until recently) Prop Shop. Its why they have been very aggressively pushing King Kong, ET, Jaws, and Back to the Future merchandise, identifying those as the four core "nostalgic" properties of the resort. It's why they created Earl the Squirrel as a holiday icon, something they lacked. Its why we've seen more and more retro HHN merchandise crop up. More broadly, its why Universal has been engaging so aggressively in playful displays of "fan service." In many ways, Uni has been much more proactive in developing and leveraging a sense of nostalgia then Disney recently - which makes sense, because they need it. They're actively building a shared past for the resort.

 

[Brian G.]

I actually think Universal is very aggressively trying to build nostalgia and, thus, generational loyalty - its something which, as you say, Disney has in huge amounts and Universal will need to compete in the long term. That's largely the reason behind the Legacy and (until recently) Prop Shop. Its why they have been very aggressively pushing King Kong, ET, Jaws, and Back to the Future merchandise, identifying those as the four core "nostalgic" properties of the resort. It's why they created Earl the Squirrel as a holiday icon, something they lacked. Its why we've seen more and more retro HHN merchandise crop up. More broadly, its why Universal has been engaging so aggressively in playful displays of "fan service." In many ways, Uni has been much more proactive in developing and leveraging a sense of nostalgia then Disney recently - which makes sense, because they need it. They're actively building a shared past for the resort.

To Clarify - I said “building”, as in attractions. Distinct difference from selling merch.

Even still, Prop Shop is closed and Legacy Store is on borrowed time. The uptick in retro stuff was due to them celebrating 30 Years, and it got extended because of the pandemic. This year’s Tribute Store was dusted off from 2020’s original plans.

 

[shiekra38]

I mean, this really isn't true at all. Diagon is the best land at Universal, perhaps in all of Orlando, and it has no kinetics. The best lands, Harambe and Pandora, in Disney's best themed park, AK, have no kinetics. WDW's Adventureland had no (or very limited) kinetics and I don't think anyone would argue it was improved by the addition of the flying carpets spinner - nor was Dinoland hurt by the removal of the wild mouse. It would be hard to argue that Hogsmeade would be hurt by the removal of Hipograf. And so on.

Kinetics are a tool that can be deployed well or badly, that may be appropriate or inappropriate given the specific context. The fact that they are being added to Monster Land after the fact and not integrated into the fundamental design of the area is cause for concern.

Diagon has no kinetics?

 

[belloq87]

Ultimately, to circle this baby back on topic, Universal isn't in the business of building nostalgia at the moment. They want the "new new".

If the only way to take nearly 100-year-old properties (and even older if we're talking about the source material for some of the movies) and implement them is to transform them into something else (lest they be seen as old-fashioned or the dreaded "nostalgic"), then I would submit perhaps the Monsters are maybe not the best basis for the kinds of experiences and lands Universal wants to build at this point.

Disclaimer: very few people here are as big a fan of those movies as I am, and I want to love whatever Universal has come up with.

Even still, Prop Shop is closed and Legacy Store is on borrowed time. The uptick in retro stuff was due to them celebrating 30 Years, and it got extended because of the pandemic. This year’s Tribute Store was dusted off from 2020’s original plans.

That's disappointing to hear. I thought Universal had possibly finally seen the light on that stuff and would continue to embrace it (at the very least in merchandising).

 

[Cup_Of_Coffee]

If the only way to take nearly 100-year-old properties (and even older if we're talking about the source material for some of the movies) and implement them is to transform them into something else (lest they be seen as old-fashioned or the dreaded "nostalgic"), then I would submit perhaps the Monsters are maybe not the best basis for the kinds of experiences and lands Universal wants to build at this point.

Disclaimer: very few people here are as big a fan of those movies as I am, and I want to love whatever Universal has come up with.



That's disappointing to hear. I thought Universal had possibly finally seen the light on that stuff and would continue to embrace it (at the very least in merchandising).

I feel you, but when catering to families in 2025, 10-12 year old kids will have been born between 2012-2015… even younger, 2010 or so. A lot of these properties are far beyond their time. It makes sense to move forward, than backward.

 

[Brian G.]

If the only way to take nearly 100-year-old properties (and even older if we're talking about the source material for some of the movies) and implement them is to transform them into something else (lest they be seen as old-fashioned or the dreaded "nostalgic"), then I would submit perhaps the Monsters are maybe not the best basis for the kinds of experiences and lands Universal wants to build at this point.

Disclaimer: very few people here are as big a fan of those movies as I am, and I want to love whatever Universal has come up with.

The people working on the land are fans, too. I'd expect them to honor the past while bringing the Monsters to a modern setting.

That's disappointing to hear. I thought Universal had possibly finally seen the light on that stuff and would continue to embrace it (at the very least in merchandising).

I mean, the merch isn't going away. I'm just explaining the heavy push in recent years. I'm sure it'll happen in waves.

 

[OhHaiInternet95]

Universal A&D has done a great job with updated versions of the Monsters.

 

[Casper Gutman]

That's disappointing to hear. I thought Universal had possibly finally seen the light on that stuff and would continue to embrace it (at the very least in merchandising).

I agree that it’s disappointing. Honestly, it surprises me a bit, because the I felt the nostalgia push began well before the 30th - and honestly, despite spending a lot of time at the resort recently, the connection to the 30th didn’t strike me much at all. If Uni is going to compete with Disney long-term, it needs to realize that the “new new” gets “old old” real fast, and the boost to attendance wares off quickly. Nostalgia, on the other hand, perpetuates itself, and can drive guests to return even when the product declines and prices become absurd, as we’re seeing at Disney.

On a somewhat related side note, one of the very few areas Disney still clearly excels over Uni is offering rides that are accommodating to a much broader range of ages and body types. If they want to keep growing, Uni really starts to need to start aggressively building rides - even thrilling ones - that don’t exclude significant portions of the potential audience, particularly families with younger children.