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Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

  • Thread starter Thread starter JungleSkip
  • Start date Start date Oct 31, 2012
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Ultranel

Ultranel

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  • Dec 16, 2015
  • #261
Jymmymack said:
The Dark Side exists whether or not there are Sith. In fact, in the Star Wars universe, there are hundreds of Force users that don't label themselves as Jedi or Sith and find a balance between light and dark. The Sith used to number hundreds, just like the Jedi. However, they were always double-crossing each other and could never get anything done. Thus the Rule of Two (which you reference) was enacted. There aren't just "two" practitioners of the Dark Side. There are simply two members of the Sith order at any given time. And Kylo is not a Sith Lord. He's a member of the Order of Ren, an order of Dark Force users, supposedly.





Come on, man. He knew R2-D2 for 15 years. Spent 3-4 with him in the Clone Wars. Same for C-3PO.
Click to expand...

1. Yeah, but I thought we were talking about THE MOVIES not what others wrote later on.... if we are going to go with the side stories, then I know perfectly what happens after Jedi, but that story was not Lucas, just approved by them. Where's Admiral Thrawn on Ep7?

2. I said, he didn't jump into conclusions, he played dumb. I was written all over his face. He was very cautious with everything he said "Luke's father", until the msg, after that he changed gears and said "ok well it seems like crap is about to hit the fan so pack up blond boy cause you are part of this whether or not you know it, and you will be learning about the force like it or not, since most likely you are part of the reason for all this turmoil, so move, we don't have all day". Also I want to add Kenobi never humanized those droids like Anakin and Luke did, I guess they were tools to him.... and they are.
 
JungleSkip

JungleSkip

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  • Dec 16, 2015
  • #262
Ultranel said:
1. Yeah, but I thought we were talking about THE MOVIES not what others wrote later on.... if we are going to go with the side stories, then I know perfectly what happens after Jedi, but that story was not Lucas, just approved by them. Where's Admiral Thrawn on Ep7?

2. I said, he didn't jump into conclusions, he played dumb. I was written all over his face. He was very cautious with everything he said "Luke's father", until the msg, after that he changed gears and said "ok well it seems like crap is about to hit the fan so pack up blond boy cause you are part of this whether or not you know it, and you will be learning about the force like it or not, since most likely you are part of the reason for all this turmoil, so move, we don't have all day". Also I want to add Kenobi never humanized those droids like Anakin and Luke did, I guess they were tools to him.... and they are.
Click to expand...

Imma let you finish, but you have a lot of head canon going on in this thread that isn't backed up in the films.
 
Jymmymack

Jymmymack

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  • Dec 16, 2015
  • #263
Ultranel said:
1. Yeah, but I thought we were talking about THE MOVIES not what others wrote later on.... if we are going to go with the side stories, then I know perfectly what happens after Jedi, but that story was not Lucas, just approved by them. Where's Admiral Thrawn on Ep7?

2. I said, he didn't jump into conclusions, he played dumb. I was written all over his face. He was very cautious with everything he said "Luke's father", until the msg, after that he changed gears and said "ok well it seems like crap is about to hit the fan so pack up blond boy cause you are part of this whether or not you know it, and you will be learning about the force like it or not, since most likely you are part of the reason for all this turmoil, so move, we don't have all day". Also I want to add Kenobi never humanized those droids like Anakin and Luke did, I guess they were tools to him.... and they are.
Click to expand...

The canon after Episode 6 was wiped clean, thus you have no Thrawn. However, a lot of canon BEFORE is still relevant. If you want to go by the films, they say over and over that there's a light side and a dark side. You can be influenced by both. Yoda only says there can only be two SITH. Any Force user can feel both sides. It's not a physical rule. It's a philosophical one that applies to one order: Sith.

And you're just making excuses for Lucas now. Obi-Wan had no reason to lie to Luke about being connected to droids. The implication was that he didn't know them personally. It's a plothole. As was Luke's name being "Skywalker." Know why? Because Lucas had no idea where he was going with the franchise at the time. He didn't even know Vader was Luke's father. So this whole business about "having all the films written out" is bollocks. Lucas had vague, vague notions of the saga. It BECAME a story about Anakin turning to the Dark Side and his family legacy, but that was long after the success of the first film.
 
STL

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  • Dec 16, 2015
  • #264
Mad Dog said:
Just read a review in our Pgh. Post Gazette. The reviewer doesn't usually give good reviews to Sci Fi movies. But she gave this a real good review and basically said it's a lot like the first movie. Good sign.
Click to expand...

quinnmac000 said:
the people with the negative reviews aren't liking it because its a rehash of the first film
Click to expand...

That is my understanding of it, too. We saw this all in Epsiode IV but with different characters. I wish I knew how to use the "spoiler" thingie on here. I don't so I won't post what I know.
 
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Jymmymack

Jymmymack

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  • Dec 16, 2015
  • #265
A few people I trust and talked to said it's great fun, the most genuinely emotional of the entire saga, and outstanding new characters.

They do say that at times it gets caught up in it's nostalgia in the plotting. However, they say that it sets up for an exciting trilogy in which the characters will go on more original adventures.

I'm hearing great things about Rey and more interestingly, Finn. The latter is said to bring a new perspective to the proceedings as he struggles to "unlearn what he has learned."

Overall I hear it's a bit derivative, but great direction, dialogue, character depth and pacing.
 
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JungleSkip

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  • Dec 16, 2015
  • #266
Jymmymack said:
Overall I hear it's a bit derivative, but great direction, dialogue, character depth and pacing.
Click to expand...

In other words, a JJ Abrams movie. Doesn't break new ground but has some great characters. Basically this sounds like the best version of the film I expected we were getting, so I'm happy.
 
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Jymmymack

Jymmymack

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  • Dec 16, 2015
  • #267
JungleSkip said:
In other words, a JJ Abrams movie. Doesn't break new ground but has some great characters. Basically this sounds like the best version of the film I expected we were getting, so I'm happy.
Click to expand...

Minus Into Darknes, which is just a phoned-in all-around awful film, JJ is a good writer. Not a good plotter. His plots are by and large derivative and pointless. But he nails character beats. He nails emotion. Interactions are fabulous. He's a good writer, he just doesn't focus enough attention to plot.

Take this scene from Super 8. The confession is so eloquently set-up to shift the focus from Joe's loss (which we've seen the entire film) to Alice's guilt.

 
ynnoj

ynnoj

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  • Dec 17, 2015
  • #268
Yeah, that was exactly what I hoped it was plus a little more.

The comparisons to ANH are fair, the movie feels a LOT like IV. But man the characters are great and it was beautifully shot. Just a great Star Wars movie.

Very happy fan right now :clap:
 
Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
U

UAN17

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  • Dec 17, 2015
  • #269
The film is astonishing in that it ticks pretty much every box it had to tick to be considered a success. The new characters were so strong that it did feel like a genuine progression of the story, yet the nods to the past were great, and much needed to please the fan boys.
 
quinnmac000

quinnmac000

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  • Dec 17, 2015
  • #270
Saw it, it was good. over it now.
 
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IAmFloridaBorn

IAmFloridaBorn

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  • Dec 17, 2015
  • #271
So many people dressed in Star Wars crap at City Walk lol. You should see it. It's cool how they have all of their movies sold out though.
 
OrlandoGuy

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  • Dec 17, 2015
  • #272
Good movie, some disappointments. As of now I'd put it like 4th out of all of them.
 
Disneyhead

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  • Dec 17, 2015
  • #273
OrlandoGuy said:
Good movie, some disappointments. As of now I'd put it like 4th out of all of them.
Click to expand...
4th? So, at least one of the prequels was better?
 
Jymmymack

Jymmymack

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  • Dec 17, 2015
  • #274
Disneyhead said:
4th? So, at least one of the prequels was better?
Click to expand...

Might want to do your math again :thumbsup:
 
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OrlandoGuy

OrlandoGuy

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  • Dec 18, 2015
  • #275
Disneyhead said:
4th? So, at least one of the prequels was better?
Click to expand...
Although @Jymmymack is right about the math, yes, I consider at least one prequel better than TFA. My ranking (as of now) would be:
1. Empire
2. Revenge of the Sith
3. A New Hope
4. Force Awakens/Attack of the Clones (I wanna put AoC higher, but I know I need to see TFA again with better expectations before I can do that definitively)
6. Return of the Jedi
7. The Phantom Menace
Again, that's purely off of first impressions, which are rarely correct. I know I need to see this again to judge fairly.

If you really wanna know, here's my thought process for the whole movie (SPOILERS AHEAD, DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANNA KNOW ANYTHING)

No Disney castle to open the movie, good. Opening crawl, awesome. First shot, beautiful, one of the best in the series.
The whole first third of the movie is some of the best storytelling I've ever seen. It was truly Star Wars at its finest. I think I was smiling throughout the entirety of the time the main characters are on Jakku. The way they worked in the homages and references to old movies were great (loved the Falcon re-introduction). Also really like Poe, probably my favorite new character, but Finn and Rey are also great...Finn has some of the funniest dialog in the franchise. I thought that at this point, nothing could go wrong and I was hoping the movie would never end.

Then Act II starts. I'm curious as to how Rey is such an amazing pilot but the movie never bothers to explain...whatever, I can let it go. Everything is well and good when Han and Chewie enter the Falcon. Han getting into trouble was good, the monster attack was fun (although at this point I'm starting to think that Finn and Rey are two of the most ridiculously lucky people ever but I digress), and all is still well. Then they get to that forest planet and things start to fall apart a little bit for me. I honestly don't know if it's bad storytelling or it's me truly being caught off guard as the narrative started taking some turns.

First off, I hate the Supreme Leader. Poorly designed character, stupid, un-intimidating name, and he lacks the gravitas of the Emperor...by a lot. Also absolutely hate (seriously, stop reading if you don't want spoilers) how they threw in that Kylo Ren was Han's son. I get it, you don't want to do a dramatic moment that rips off Empire, but still, they just sorta mentioned it and we are all of a sudden supposed to accept that without it making much sense to us at all. What's worse--this has very little bearing on the plot. Maybe they'll elaborate it on the future movies, but in this one, I don't think anything would've been lost if Kylo had no relation to Han and Leia (and wtf was with them referring to him only as "their son"...so weird). I guess you could argue that the final confrontation between Kylo and Han wouldn't have been as meaningful had this relationship not been established, but then again, it wasn't very good to begin with. Kylo Ren starts freaking crying, only to kill Han in a very un-Star Wars moment IMO. It was a scene that I think was meant to be powerful, but it just was so awkward and out of place to me.

And that brings me to another problem--Kylo. He starts off as a straight up badass. He has an amazing presence in the first half of the movie. As soon as he takes his mask off though (why does the guy have a mask anyway?), he becomes the weakest villain in the series. His serious moments are undermined by bits of comedy (his lightsaber fits, the stormtroopers watching and walking away...even as corny as the OT got, they never reduced Darth Vader to a comic relief character, he ALWAYS had an intimidating presence on screen). I loved the comedic bits in the movie, but too many here ruined the tone of parts of the movie.

Anyway, so after Rey discovers the lightsaber, Starkiller Base starts blowing up planets...wut? Where did that come from? The whole movie we've been following the First Order and yet THIS is the first time we hear about this super weapon and what it can do. It just sorta...happens, without us understanding truly what it is, robbing what should've been a grand cinematic reveal (like the Death Star) to what seems like an afterthought.

So this happens, The First Order begins attacking, and all of a sudden the Resistance shows up, with Poe leading the way. Again, wtf? He's the main focus of the movie's first ten minutes, then disappears for like an hour, then shows back up again with absolutely no explanation of where he's been and no introduction other than a shot of him in the cockpit coming up with the rest of the X-Wings.

And that becomes a main problem throughout the movie. While the Falcon and Han/Chewie's intro is well-done, characters just start appearing for the sake of appearing in the second half. C-3PO literally comes out of nowhere and pops into the screen. R2D2 is given a contrived reason to appear. Leia is said to be a general but is given pretty much nothing to do but be there for the sake of being there. It's just disappointing compared to the excellent beginning.

So we get to the climax...we have to blow up the station or else. Finn mentions he can do it, but then at the last second mentions "hey jk, I was a janitor I don't know what I'm doing". It was a funny moment in the movie, but served 0 purpose. The shield gets deactivated anyway, and we literally gained nothing from that part of the story except some extra jokes. And I hated that the badass chick in the badass stormtrooper outfit from the beginning is given the task of deactivating the shield and then forgotten about. Like really? She was made out to be a major component of the First Order but her sendoff is "where do we put her? do you have a trash compactor?" Again, good for a laugh but not the story or the pace of the movie.

So then the climax happens. Kylo has lost all intimidating factor at this point. I liked the lightsaber battle at the end. But I didn't like how we focus on that for what seems like a good 20 minutes and get nothing of the dogfight until the end. Remember RoJ where we were constantly cutting back and forth between Luke vs Vader and Lando vs the Death Star? Not here. We just forget about Poe and his guys until the end and they just happen to blow it up (and it's unclear how. They're given until it gets dark out but they keep fighting well past that point. What took them so long to fire the thing up? And while I'm at it, why does it use the sun for power? That's too over-the-top and makes no sense. This was never established in the first attack, why all of a sudden is that an important point? Again, it seems like poor storytelling).

Then we're given a cliffhanger ending which, I'll admit, is great. It's very, very different from previous Star Wars closing shots (I don't like that they end it on a helicopter shot, it's not as powerful, but that's a petty complaint). I'm glad that Luke is back. That was good way to end it.

I don't want to seem like I'm sh*tting on the movie. I actually did really, really like it. It felt like Star Wars, and I'm impressed with JJ Abrams was able to accomplish. The action scenes were brilliant, as was the cinematography, and the cast is stellar...couldn't think of better heroes to spend the next two movies with. BB-8 is also a really well-done character. Overall, it was just so fun. But it lacked something iconic. From every Star Wars movie, you can pick out at least one element or scene that stands out and makes that movie that movie. Darth Maul in 1. The Battle of Genesis in 2. Grievous and the emergence of Darth Vader in 3. Pretty much everything in 4. "I am your father" in 5. The final battle and moment between Luke/Vader in 6. In 7...I'm hard-pressed to come up with anything. We have a weapon that's not well-explained, a weak villain, and a lot of throwbacks. Even the score was disappointing, generic background music sprinkled with a few themes from the past. Maybe that'll change over time, but we have yet to find out.

The thing is, I only have seen 4 SW movies in theaters (including this one), and the only ones I really remember are 3 and 7. The feeling I had leaving the theater after ep. 3 was much, much greater than the one I had after leaving this movie. I feel that, weak dialogue and poor direction aside, the prequels were great Star Wars movies. You remove the elements of the OT from the PT and you still have very unique movies with a very powerful story. In this one, I feel that if you remove the cameos and references, you have a pretty basic sci-fi film. Again, I'm sure this will change over time, especially as the story is expanded upon in subsequent films, but that's my feeling as of now. That's not to say it was bad, but it was not all it could have been IMO. Beautiful, yes. Fun, yes. But the next great Star Wars movie? Not for now. We'll see what happens when I give it a re-watch.
 
Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
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*Q*

*Q*

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  • Dec 18, 2015
  • #276
Yeah, once you say a prequel is better than A New Hope, I stop listening.
 
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OrlandoGuy

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  • Dec 18, 2015
  • #277
Wouldn't be a Star Wars discussion without somebody taking it personally ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Brian G.

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  • Dec 18, 2015
  • #278
OrlandoGuy said:
Wouldn't be a Star Wars discussion without somebody taking it personally ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Click to expand...

Personally? He just disagreed with your opinion.
 
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sjago13

sjago13

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  • Dec 18, 2015
  • #279
I'd put this as either 2nd or 3rd fav behind empire and possibly a new hope. It felt like a nice blend of 4 and 5 and I'm really excited to see where it goes.

I also kinda think Han killed himself. I'll have to watch that scene closer and think about it. But my reasoning is that there are 3 options when they meet up. Either han kills Ben which he can't do since he is his father, Ben kills Han which would irreversibly send him den the path of the dark side, or Han kills himself hoping that Ben can find the light.
 
Brian G.

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  • Dec 18, 2015
  • #280
Absolutely loved it!

I'd rank it ahead of Jedi for 3rd out of the 7.

The movie wasn't perfect, which really no movie is, but it was everything I'd hope for in a new Star Wars movie. I love the new characters and they did a good job getting me invested in them for this new trilogy.

Also, John Williams score was bae; and Rey is SUPERBAE.

Just a few cons:

While I liked the character and what they were going for with Kylo Ren, I wasn't big on having him sorta "lose" to Rey or Finn. 2 untrained duelists taking it to someone seen as the next Vader-type took a little away for me. Rey I was little more forgiving because "The Force", but Finn getting 2 good licks rubbed me the wrong way.

Another Deathstar-type weapon, and the similarity to the solution/finale of New Hope/Jedi.

A few callbacks may have been a little forced, but I don't think it detracted from the movie in any negative way.

I wish Luke was more involved/bigger role, but I get why they went that route.
 
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