Director James Gunn under fire for offensive tweets [Update: Fired]

[Parkscope Joe]

I'm against both being fired, FYI.

Here's my view on the actual firings: Barr was using her power to hurt and belittle, Gunn was using his power to expose and improve others. I say power because when Barr was a nut farmer and Gunn was a B movie director they didn't have the same power as a leading actor in a sitcom or director of a major series of movies. Power is a huge factor in when something is problematic.

If y'all couldn't guess yet, I'm quite liberal.

 

[Magic-Man]

In gaming there's a harassment campaign called Gamergate that aims to remove women and minority groups from the conversation and game creation. It's based around "the press and developers shouldn't mingle" and "gamers are a subgroup don't ignore us" but in reality it uses these ideas as a way for those who can't hear the dog whistle to back them. "Well of course we shouldn't let devs and the press mingle" says honest person who doesn't see that the target harassment campaign and doxxing is based around hearsay, fake outrage, and outright lies to silence someone because they're a woman, queer, or a minority.

This recently came up again with the firing of two developers at ArenaNet, the developer of Guild Wars. In a twitter thread about game design a woman developer was "well actually"-ed and asked if a basic solution to a complex concept was right; something that insulted her ability and intelligence. Instead of putting up with this, again, she blocked the dude and was "rude" to him. The Gamergate crowd pounced on this and in 24 hours she was fired, along with a colleague who backed her up. This is despite the fact she brought up her outspokenness of liberal issues on twitter to her boss and employer and they said it was fine. ArenaNet's capitulation to an online silencing campaign not based on her being rude but her having unrelated ideas Gamergate didn't like has turned into a mess with women ALL OVER the industry being targeted with harassment to provoke them and even *Insert Woman's Name* blank forms asking for firings. It's a mess with expanding and dangerous consequences. (An additional link to a video of Waypoint talking about this issue because Austin Walker is baller and smarter and more well articulated than I'll ever be)

It's hard to not see some parallels to the ArenaNet fiasco and this firing and it's horrifying to think what the consequences of this could be for other films, studios, and in entertainment. MC is a conspiracy nut who does not care about the truth, empathy, or understanding, he thinks "Hollywood" is filled with pedophiles (same with "Washington DC", seriously if a dude is this tied up with pedophilia?) and waged a pearl clutching attack against Gunn not because he found the tweets hurtful but because Gunn is loud voice about empathy, toxic masculinity, and a critic of President Trump. MC doesn't give a rats ass about jokes, context, or understanding, he wants people to shut up so he can feel better about being a terrible human being. In fact he got an MSNBC reporter fired... who was then immediately rehired once they found out who MC was. Disney f***** up, badly.

I fully expect Rain Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, Jimmy Kimmel, and more to be attacked even more and the same tactics used to silence Gunn to silence and remove them just as it's happening after ArenaNet. This isn't conservative vs liberal (even if the bad faith actors hide behind "conservative ideas"), it's freedom against toxicity and destruction.

Wow, this makes me ashamed to be a movie fan and gamer. What the hell is wrong with people?

 

[SeventyOne]

No one in the world is clean, everyone's told jokes that would offend somebody.
Heck, My wife's Mum died of Cancer when my wife was very young and she often makes jokes about cancer, because humour like that is a coping strategy to dealing with the darkest stuff we have to deal with as human beings.
I don’t know if this is a particularly UK based thing, but people over here often make jokes about celebrities and people they know when they die too, which can come across as very mean spirited if you want to see it that way. However, if you see it for what it really is, it’s a defence mechanism, a way of coping with the fragility and hopelessness that people feel when forced to consider their own mortality.
Taboo humour should not be completely vilified without looking at the reason for its existence in the first place.

To be blunt, don't confuse theme park nerd subculture with the real world. A local comedy Orlando troupe does "roasts" of fictional characters. I went to one last year--sold out Orlando Improv--that featured jokes that make Gunn's look tame. Pedophilia, 9/11, even a couple Vegas shooting jokes ... about a week after that tragic incident. The crowd ate it up. I truly hope the pearl-clutching by 20- and 30-someting men--and but for Alicia it all seems to be men in this thread--is some misguided effort to score political points.

The great comics--Pryor, Bruce, Carlin, Murphy--made their mark with taboo humor. Even Robin Williams told some vile jokes decades before he became Genie. Gunn wasn't ever destined to join that group, his talents lie in screenwriting. But I'm not going to fault him for obvious jokes made almost a decade ago. No one can take that seriously.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

To be blunt, don't confuse theme park nerd subculture with the real world. A local comedy Orlando troupe does "roasts" of fictional characters. I went to one last year--sold out Orlando Improv--that featured jokes that make Gunn's look tame. Pedophilia, 9/11, even a couple Vegas shooting jokes ... about a week after that tragic incident. The crowd ate it up. I truly hope the pearl-clutching by 20- and 30-someting men--and but for Alicia it all seems to be men in this thread--is some misguided effort to score political points.

The great comics--Pryor, Bruce, Carlin, Murphy--made their mark with taboo humor. Even Robin Williams told some vile jokes decades before he became Genie. Gunn wasn't ever destined to join that group, his talents lie in screenwriting. But I'm not going to fault him for obvious jokes made almost a decade ago. No one can take that seriously.

Two points to add.

1) One of my grate shames of doing my podcast is the lack of female voices, so thank you for bringing that up as we need to confront that elephant in the room.

2) The great comics you referenced always punched up or sideways, and while I didn't go to the Orlando comedy roast it's likely those jokes did to. Gunn's felt like punching down or not even jokes, there was no build up or release, it was just shock for shock's sake.

 

[UNIrd]

Yeah, I used to hear jokes like that all the time in high school. And yes, shock humor is a type of humor. For some inexplicable reason, dead baby jokes for some reason were especially popular for this one group of guys. The people telling them DO grow up and become lawyers, teachers, even filmmakers...

Now, Gunn was a grown man when he was making these jokes so it's a little different. Of course, people are going to find them offensive... as they're supposed to be. But I think the issue with social media is that everyone thinks they're a comedian sometimes, myself included. But what you say does matter when you are not self-employed. I do think twice about what I post and share as any of you should whether you agree with it or not.

 

[Lucky Planet]

Since you're playing the Roseanne card I'll address something I didn't in my prior post.

Roseanne Barr was fired for repeated posting of racist, sexist, and homophobic statements while working at ABC. She was given many free passes and constantly feigned ignorance or shifted the blame elsewhere (see: "Ambien doesn't make you racist"). She was called out by those hurt by her comments and the position of power she was in. She was fired after showing callous intent towards others.

Gunn was let go after conspiracy theorists didn't like him calling out their bullshit and they went through his history to find dirt, dirt he took responsibility for, apologized for, and tried to show others how to be better in 2012. MC was not hurt by Gunn's bad, tasteless jokes, he wanted fodder for silencing. In fact those hurt by his statements called him out on it in 2012 and he owned up and apologized for it.

Additionally, Disney knew about Barr and Gunn's history prior to their hirings. Just as they made the choice to hire them and took on all that comes with it, they also took on all the responsibility and fall out of letting them go. I don't know the contract Gunn or Barr signed, but it appears they could be let go for causing the company harm or giving them a bad look.

which tweets were worse in your opinion?
which tweets were more horrible? this is a totally honest genuine question. who was worst between the two ? which posts were more shocking?

 

[Magic-Man]

There's a difference between so-called "offensive" jokes and borderline-criminal jokes. Gunn's were the latter.

 

[Lucky Planet]

I wasn't even defending Roseanne, i dont watch that show, never cared about her in my life.
but if James was okay with her firing for her JOKES, then he should understand why disney fired him. regardless of how old the tweets were. and the people in the media that were celebrating her firing like Patton Oswalt should NOT defend James now.
because that seems insane to do

 

[Scott W.]

I wasn't even defending Roseanne, i dont watch that show, never cared about her in my life.
but if James was okay with her firing for her JOKES, then he should understand why disney fired him. regardless of how old the tweets were. and the people in the media that were celebrating her firing like Patton Oswalt should NOT defend James now.
because that seems insane to do

There’s a difference between jokes today and jokes 10 years ago unless people can’t change.

Actually, having said that, Roseanne wasn’t joking, she was stating her opinion.

 

[Magic-Man]

There’s a difference between jokes today and jokes 10 years ago unless people can’t change.

People change when they're children and young adults. Not when they're 40 years old.

 

[Brian G.]

which tweets were worse in your opinion?
which tweets were more horrible? this is a totally honest genuine question. who was worst between the two ? which posts were more shocking?

I wasn't even defending Roseanne, i dont watch that show, never cared about her in my life.
but if James was okay with her firing for her JOKES, then he should understand why disney fired him. regardless of how old the tweets were. and the people in the media that were celebrating her firing like Patton Oswalt should NOT defend James now.
because that seems insane to do

Gunn actually made a post accepting his firing. I think what people are more up in arms about is that:
A. This was already addressed years ago, and it was water under the bridge at that point and Disney moved on with him.
B. In addition, since this was something said 10 years ago - he has shown it's not who he is anymore and has not resorted to that kind of behavior since. Roseanne keeps having issue after issue; past, present, and now.
C. I think we can all agree that the actions of others still employed by Disney are definitely worse than the old jokes of Gunn.

There's a difference between so-called "offensive" jokes and borderline-criminal jokes. Gunn's were the latter.

Jokes are subjective, so it all depends on your POV. I love Anthony Jeselnick (who says some really messed up crap), but I know his brand of humor isn't for anyone.

 

[Brian G.]

People change when they're children and young adults. Not when they're 40 years old.

I'm 33. The person I am today is not the person I was last year, and it was not the person I was 5 years ago, and definitely wasn't the person I was 10 years ago. There have been studies that show "full maturity" for the average man occurs in their early 40's.

Basically... and stealing this from @thisfloridalife on Twitter -

We are no longer allowed to have a past in which we were not as learned, evolved, mature, or better than we are now. We are no longer allowed to be human.

 

[shiekra38]

Some thoughts
1) Disney can hire and fire whoever they want, I feel they have a bit of a double standard going on

2) He shouldn't have been fired, unless we're going to fire directors and actors that have done worse

3) Punishing speech makes me cringe....Disney has no spine

 

[Magic-Man]

I'm 33. The person I am today is not the person I was last year, and it was not the person I was 5 years ago, and definitely wasn't the person I was 10 years ago. There have been studies that show "full maturity" for the average man occurs in their early 40's.

Good point, but you still proved mine. Gunn was in his early 40's when he made these tweets. He had already hit full maturity.

 

[Brian G.]

Good point, but you still proved mine. Gunn was in his early 40's when he made these tweets. He had already hit full maturity.

:thud:

How old are you? Serious question.

 

[Lucky Planet]

it is interesting because this is not the first time someone gets fired for previous comments made years ago.
Billy Bush was fired for his interview with trump. that video is like 13 years old. he didnt even say anything since it was trump saying sexist things. Billy just laughed lol. he got fired for laughing at sexist comments. Paula Deen lost work because of racist comments made 30 years ago. Hulk Hogan was fired from the WWE for racist comments said 10 years ago.

Im NOT even equally comparing these cases to James Gunn's case. I am Not saying they are equal... I am just saying i find interesting that old comments can get your fired now. this is not even the first time that an old comment bites someone in the butt. are those comments made by Paula and Hulk Hogan disgusting, Yes they are very disgusting. did they deserve to get fired, Yes, they are racists. it is just interesting that old things come back to haunt people now.
Im sure there are dozens of other cases if you look for them, This is the way of the world now

 

[Magic-Man]

:thud:

How old are you? Serious question.

16. But still, when he's making these tweets in his early 40's, that raises a serious question about his mindset. He had to know that those tweets were going to come back to haunt him eventually, and he chose to leave them up anyways.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I think about this whole thing. It's confusing as hell. Gunn shouldn't have posted the tweets, Disney shouldn't have fired him years later, people shouldn't have gone through his tweets just because he hated Trump. This whole situation is messed up, and now the likes of Kevin Feige and Co. have to pay for everyone else's mistakes.

 

[Scott W.]

People change when they're children and young adults. Not when they're 40 years old.

People can change at any age.

My final say on all this is that jokes are completely subjective, either everything is ok to joke about or nothing is.

I'm Scottish and Frankie Boyle is far more offensive than anything James Gunn tweeted out and he's a hugely successful comedian here. Jimmy Carr is in the same boat. Maybe Americans are just more easily offended? :shrug:

 

[Parkscope Joe]

which tweets were worse in your opinion?
which tweets were more horrible? this is a totally honest genuine question. who was worst between the two ? which posts were more shocking?

Great question and this is a good discussion.

I think both Gunn and Barr have offensive postings. But Barr got fired for consistent racism to this day, as @Brian G. has said. Gunn had shown growth. Context is important in both of these cases and why I think Barr's firing is justified and needed while Gunn's is ill advised. I've really battled with these two thoughts for a bit because while on the surface they appear like similar situations they are not once one starts picking apart the context of who found issue and the responses of both Gunn and Barr.

16. But still, when he's making these tweets in his early 40's, that raises a serious question about his mindset. He had to know that those tweets were going to come back to haunt him eventually, and he chose to leave them up anyways.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I think about this whole thing. It's confusing as hell. Gunn shouldn't have posted the tweets, Disney shouldn't have fired him years later, people shouldn't have gone through his tweets just because he hated Trump. This whole situation is messed up, and now the likes of Kevin Feige and Co. have to pay for everyone else's mistakes.

People are always growing and changing; emotions, feelings, and thoughts always are changing. And it's hard too as you can tell. I'm advise is to read the thoughts of those who are honest and true in their intentions and find your own way. It took me 31 years to find my way and I know I'm not "done" yet.

 

[Lucky Planet]

Great question and this is a good discussion.

I think both Gunn and Barr have offensive postings. But Barr got fired for consistent racism to this day, as @Brian G. has said. Gunn had shown growth. Context is important in both of these cases and why I think Barr's firing is justified and needed while Gunn's is ill advised. I've really battled with these two thoughts for a bit because while on the surface they appear like similar situations they are not once one starts picking apart the context of who found issue and the responses of both Gunn and Barr.



People are always growing and changing; emotions, feelings, and thoughts always are changing. And it's hard too as you can tell. I'm advise is to read the thoughts of those who are honest and true in their intentions and find your own way. It took me 31 years to find my way and I know I'm not "done" yet.

thank you for the reply. it makes sense