The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Nick]

To be fair - the whole incident was done in probably like 20-30 min.

Yeah, that's fair. And if you're someone like War Machine and you are seeing on the news that Sam is there as Cap along with Bucky, he probably felt like they could handle it. These are small, street level battles. That's why I think it's important that Cap 4 is happening, as it will put Sam/Cap in the action of a bigger threat and there will be more action in the two-hours as well.

Critics aren't being too kind to this episode and tbh, I have to say I agree with them on this.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Its not that bad

What did people want? I love End Game but even that has some faults...ending stuff is hard and this is not a bad ending.

 

[Nick]

Its not that bad

What did people want? I love End Game but even that has some faults...ending stuff is hard and this is not a bad ending.

IMO, the episode felt rushed, predictable, and a bit cliche. I think an extra 20-30 minutes could've helped smooth some of that out, but I think there really should've been an entire extra episode to flesh out the Flag Smashers more.

EDIT:
Looking forward though, The MCU just has an absolute crazy slate over the next 2-3 years.

 

[Jerroddragon]

IMO, the episode felt rushed, predictable, and a bit cliche. I think an extra 20-30 minutes could've helped smooth some of that out, but I think there really should've been an entire extra episode to flesh out the Flag Smashers more.

EDIT:
Looking forward though, The MCU just has an absolute crazy slate over the next 2-3 years.

But what did you want in those 20 mins?

The only thing I could think of theme wise that would fit is if the Chancel still voted to deploy troops.
I saw some upset Sam/Bucky aren't upset at US Agent but in episode 5 it was clear they both understood why he did, they are also not friends but were not going to turn away help in the moment. Both of these guys went though the civil war and saw how quickly people can change into their worst selves. Ironman was going to kill Bucky but next film Cap forgives him...so its pretty in character for these guys to forgive other heroes.

 

[Nick]

But what did you want in those 20 mins?

The only thing I could think of theme wise that would fit is if the Chancel still voted to deploy troops.
I saw some upset Sam/Bucky aren't upset at US Agent but in episode 5 it was clear they both understood why he did, they are also not friends but were not going to turn away help in the moment. Both of these guys went though the civil war and saw how quickly people can change into their worst selves. Ironman was going to kill Bucky but next film Cap forgives him...so its pretty in character for these guys to forgive other heroes.

A 70 minute episode or so would've allowed for things to not feel so rushed. The final 15-20 minutes of the show especially. Everything just sort of... came together, everything we thought was obvious and was going to happen happened. Bucky's story just abruptly wraps within about a minute or so, which could have been a much more impactful and emotional sequence imo. Everything just needed more fleshing out towards the end. I still like the series, but this episode, while it had some really cool parts, it's my least favorite episode from any Disney+ Premium Original show (The Mandalorian/WandaVision/FatWS).

The show had some weird editing towards the end too, as the Zemo scene and the John Walker/US Agent scene both felt like they were meant to be post-credit scenes and were randomly placed inside of the episode. Supposedly the Zemo scene was actually supposed to be a post-credits scene, but it would've had Yelena Belova and they didn't want to introduce Yelena that way. And then the post-credits scene we got, while i'm interested in that going forward, it was very underwhelming and I couldn't believe that was the only post-credit scene.

 

[Jerroddragon]

A 70 minute episode or so would've allowed for things to not feel so rushed. The final 15-20 minutes of the show especially. Everything just sort of... came together, everything we thought was obvious and was going to happen happened. Bucky's story just abruptly wraps within about a minute or so, which could have been a much more impactful and emotional sequence imo. Everything just needed more fleshing out towards the end. I still like the series, but this episode, while it had some really cool parts, it's my least favorite episode from any Disney+ Premium Original show (The Mandalorian/WandaVision/FatWS).

The show had some weird editing towards the end too, as the Zemo scene and the John Walker/US Agent scene both felt like they were meant to be post-credit scenes and were randomly placed inside of the episode. Supposedly the Zemo scene was actually supposed to be a post-credits scene, but it would've had Yelena Belova and they didn't want to introduce Yelena that way. And then the post-credits scene we got, while i'm interested in that going forward, it was very underwhelming and I couldn't believe that was the only post-credit scene.

I think they can kinda work on that in the future but think Bucky story is just not over yet and they will have more of that in the future. I kinda see why you think the Zemo stuff was off but the post credit stuff its fine either way for me. I'm invested in the MCU with out without them at this point and think the shows don't need them as much as the films did

 

[Nick]

I do want to emphasize that I did still really enjoy the season as a whole, I just have some issues with the finale. The series did exactly what it set out to do, which was to develop our main characters quite a bit over the course of the series. Sam, Bucky, Zemo, Isaiah (I hope he's in Cap 4 in some way) and John Walker all had great character arcs. We also got to see Sam's new suit, much like we saw Wanda's new suit.

Sharon and the Flag Smashers are my only real issue with the series, and even Sharon I can understand at least. I think the series would've been better served if it didn't play coy on the whole "who is the power broker thing" when we all knew it was likely Sharon and had just outright told us earlier on. An extra episode that focused almost exclusively on the Flag smashers and Sharon could've really made us care a bit more about the inner workings of the Flag Smashers, but what i'm more disappointed in is the lack of a Sharon flashback. There was a lot of "Tell, don't show" with her, when I think we needed to see more of her past what, 7 years including the blip? The lack of showing anything from the blip timeframe with Sharon leads me to believe she's either a Skrull or Sharon was just sort of lazily written in the show.

That leads to one final thought: I know a lot of people seem to be really excited about this Skrull-era and Secret Invasion, but honestly, I freaking hate the whole idea of shape shifters. It means that you can never fully believe anything anymore and they can ret-con character choices that they maybe want to change whenever they want. Is Sharon a Skrull? Who knows! Feige obviously does, but my point is that when the show was filmed, maybe they intended on this just being the direction for her character and now they're like... "Eh, she can be a skrull". That's what shape-shifters allow them to do in story-telling and I just am not a fan.

Anyway, i'd give the show a solid 8/10. I think I just have to lower my expectations on the "villains" for these Disney+ shows, because outside of that, the shows have been really good.

One thing i'm wondering going forward... Is Val working for Sharon?

 

[AlexanderMBush]

@Nick My curiosity with Val, goes more in the tone of the subject of Red Skull. By all accounts, he is now free due to the Soul Stone sacrifices; so odds are he could be around. And they have a new actor that can replace Hugo, as seen with Infinity War and Endgame. I'm guessing Hydra is slowly rebuilding itself, and Captain America 4 will be finally going into the Serpent Society arc properly; with a combined effort of Val and Red Skull as villians.

 

[Nick]

@Nick My curiosity with Val, goes more in the tone of the subject of Red Skull. By all accounts, he is now free due to the Soul Stone sacrifices; so odds are he could be around. And they have a new actor that can replace Hugo, as seen with Infinity War and Endgame. I'm guessing Hydra is slowly rebuilding itself, and Captain America 4 will be finally going into the Serpent Society arc properly; with a combined effort of Val and Red Skull as villians.

How many times are we gonna do Hydra in a Cap movie though? This would be 3 out of 4 movies if indeed Hydra is a main villain in Sam's Captain America movie. I'm honestly wayyyy more interested in seeing more US Agent, Zemo, etc than anything. Give me someone new and interesting. I think Val is pulling the Nick Fury and putting the Thunderbolts together and it's gonna be blank card by blank card. It's possible they removed her from Black Widow since she debuted here (and both of her scenes seemed to be shot oddly, as if they were meant to be post-credit scenes), but if she is still in Black Widow, I wonder if we'll see her give Taskmaster one of those cards.

 

[Brian G.]

I agree with the finale feeling a bit rushed. They were too chummy with John for all the conflict that was happening throughout the season and how they last left him...

I can definitely see why people were soft on the series.

 

[Nick]

I agree with the finale feeling a bit rushed. They were too chummy with John for all the conflict that was happening throughout the season and how they last left him...

I can definitely see why people were soft on the series.

To be fair, when John Walker is running in with his Party City Shield, he's doing that on his own and in real time, those events probably would have happened real quick and he did choose to help out. My only issue with John Walker is how him and Bucky became a duo that was going back and forth with banter, etc. The guy still consciously killed a man in broad daylight and had the whole thing filmed.

 

[belloq87]

Having now seen the entire season, I'll share what I wrote on Letterboxd:

"The couple of episodes featuring Sam, Bucky, and Zemo off on an international adventure together really worked for me. Pretty much everything else... didn’t. The Flagsmashers never became credible or compelling villains with clear-enough motivations (as presented, Karli, the leader, is kind of an incomprehensible character), and the structure and pacing of the episodes were frequently questionable. Rumors and speculation indicate the show might have been heavily reworked/restructured due to the pandemic, and while we won’t know for sure if that’s true unless the talent speak about it, there is definitely evidence within the show itself that it’s not fully what was originally intended. There’s really no other explanation for how limp the Flagsmashers stuff ended up, and since that was the driving plotline, the entire series was undercut by it. The show did set up some intriguing possibilities for the future."

Ultimately, I think it was 1/3 a great show, 1/3 a solid show, and 1/3 a pretty bad show. Zemo and Walker ended up being my favorite elements. I look forward to their further usage in the MCU going forward.

 

[Legacy]

Considering the traumatic redemption arc Bucky went through throughout the season for murdering people as the result of his brainwashing, the “you’re not so bad” chumminess of the Walker redemption is nigh inexcusable. He went into a murderous rage and killed the wrong person. He doesn’t get redemption because he showed up to get his ass kicked. And if Marvel legitimately thinks that’s enough to make US Agent a character viewers will root for in anything, I think they’re sadly mistaken.

 

[Nick]

Having now seen the entire season, I'll share what I wrote on Letterboxd:

"The couple of episodes featuring Sam, Bucky, and Zemo off on an international adventure together really worked for me. Pretty much everything else... didn’t. The Flagsmashers never became credible or compelling villains with clear-enough motivations (as presented, Karli, the leader, is kind of an incomprehensible character), and the structure and pacing of the episodes were frequently questionable. Rumors and speculation indicate the show might have been heavily reworked/restructured due to the pandemic, and while we won’t know for sure if that’s true unless the talent speak about it, there is definitely evidence within the show itself that it’s not fully what was originally intended. There’s really no other explanation for how limp the Flagsmashers stuff ended up, and since that was the driving plotline, the entire series was undercut by it. The show did set up some intriguing possibilities for the future."

Ultimately, I think it was 1/3 a great show, 1/3 a solid show, and 1/3 a pretty bad show. Zemo and Walker ended up being my favorite elements. I look forward to their further usage in the MCU going forward.

I've been critical of the Flag Smashers a lot, but I don't think that they were terrible. I do think Karli being so incomprehensible was on purpose because she is just a teenager leading a rebellion. The Flag Smashers also raised interesting philosophical questions that lead to some absolutely GREAT scenes with Sam/Karli or Sam talking to the Senator that really proved why he's Cap.

That all said, while you could understand where they were coming from and it made for an interesting philosophical conversation, everything we got from them was extremely surface level. Karli sort of repeats the same stuff over and over. We never get a good look inside with deeper conversations and it's sort of a shame because with how good the writing was on certain parts of this show, for them to just drop the ball on the Flag Smashers (and Shannon) is almost criminal.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Considering the traumatic redemption arc Bucky went through throughout the season for murdering people as the result of his brainwashing, the “you’re not so bad” chumminess of the Walker redemption is nigh inexcusable. He went into a murderous rage and killed the wrong person. He doesn’t get redemption because he showed up to get his ass kicked. And if Marvel legitimately thinks that’s enough to make US Agent a character viewers will root for in anything, I think they’re sadly mistaken.

So Ironman is a monster to you....he would have killed both Cap and Bucky over a death

Can't be just ok with Tony getting into a rage but when Walker does it...its wrong?

 

[Nick]

So Ironman is a monster to you....he would have killed both Cap and Bucky over a death

Can't be just ok with Tony getting into a rage but when Walker does it...its wrong?

Tony was certainly no saint. He was a warmonger for years and years before he ever put on the Iron Man suit.

 

[Tristan]

Lots of stuff I've been reading and watching have been pretty underwhelming endings *cough* Attack on Titan *cough*. I'm not entirely mad at how this ended either, but just kind of like "oh, alright"

Overall 8/10
Ending 4/10

 

[belloq87]

Considering the traumatic redemption arc Bucky went through throughout the season for murdering people as the result of his brainwashing, the “you’re not so bad” chumminess of the Walker redemption is nigh inexcusable. He went into a murderous rage and killed the wrong person. He doesn’t get redemption because he showed up to get his ass kicked. And if Marvel legitimately thinks that’s enough to make US Agent a character viewers will root for in anything, I think they’re sadly mistaken.

I thought Walker's arc was very compelling, and the fact that they backed away from doing the most boring, lazy version of the character (that he's just an awful guy with zero humanity) is a huge positive for the series in my book.

What Walker did was bad, unquestionably, but it's nowhere close to being on the level of the cumulative death and pain that Bucky caused through the decades when he was brainwashed.

I've been critical of the Flag Smashers a lot, but I don't think that they were terrible. I do think Karli being so incomprehensible was on purpose because she is just a teenager leading a rebellion. The Flag Smashers also raised interesting philosophical questions that lead to some absolutely GREAT scenes with Sam/Karli or Sam talking to the Senator that really proved why he's Cap.

Sam's leniency with Karli might have theoretically worked if she was a more coherent character; I don't necessarily buy that she was "just a teenager" and we therefore need to cut her some slack. She chose murder as an acceptable tactic, and repeatedly returned to that as an objective even after Sam tried to talk her down. There does come a time when a person has had enough chances to stop trying to be a murderer!

Her "I don't want to kill people who don't matter" was borderline sociopathic in its tone-deafness.

Tony was certainly no saint. He was a warmonger for years and years before he ever put on the Iron Man suit.

Tony killed a lot of people after becoming Iron Man, too.

Not every conflict needs to exist in a murky, moral grey area. Especially in what is ostensibly supposed to be escapist entertainment, it's okay for heroes to kill bad guys.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

To give what I have to say on Walker: I turn to the mentality of Erskine's words from The First Avenger.

John Walker, for the most part; is a good soldier. But he is not a good man. He may have moments of where he cares for others, but in the end it's about what he wants. I don't see what happened in Episode 6 as a redemption arc by any means. And I honestly think once Captain America 4 gets more into the details, that Walker is the Winter Soldier of that film: a threat for Sam, but also bound by that of others as the US Agent. I completely agree with @belloq87 here in that they handled his character with leaving the door open extremely well.

I agree with @Nick that my only legitimate complaint, was that they should've had a few extra minutes to pad things out, as they could've went to 60 minutes with this and it wouldn't of been a deterrent.

 

[chris.g]

Count me in as very disappointed.

Initially, my preconception of the show revolved around the issues Isaiah Bradley brought up. I'm surprised they brought him in at all - as there was a lot of word about the Gov denying there wanting to be a Black Captain America. A show around that ingrained within the soci-political climate of the MCU would've been wonderful. Bucky in retrospect, feels useless. A lot of the middle of the show feels like filler. I like this a bit better than WandaVision, but it is also insanely predictable and at the end of the day the same tired MCU formula I've grown fatigued from already. Zemo was also completely wasted. His mask was nothing short of a marketing scheme! I could go on and on about what didn't rub me the right way but well, I'd be taking to a brick wall at that point.

On to the positives... the new costume is excellent, albeit, a bit goofy from the top. Sam needed development, and he got it. I didn't envision him as Cap as I did Bucky but the last episode (especially the speech to the senator) were very Captain America to me. John Walker was excellently done. I hope Sam gets better stories this time around, and really gets the opportunity to lead the MCU going forward.