Universal's New Park/Site B Blue Sky Thread

[UniversalRBLX]

Speaking of attendance I think Uni's ideal plan is to have the parks have the same amount of attendance (or just off by a little). They don't want a WDW situation in which MK has 20 mil guests while the other 3 parks have half of that. I think the goal for Universal is to balance out parks in terms of attendance, which is why we have SNW moving to the new park. SNW + HP at USF will be a nightmare to have guests go to a new park, even if they get LOTR it's still not enough (gotta bring in the family market).

All 3 (eventually) dry parks can have identical attendance if:
USF: HP + Pokemon
IOA: HP + Zelda at LC
3rd Gate: LOTR + SNW MARIO... whatever other IPs they decide which won't really change the outcome

I can see them all averaging 15-20 million by 2030, considering that room capacity should be double or more than now.

The only variables that can change attendance (for better or worse) for UNI is:
Epcot: how well are the updates received?
How many value hotel rooms does Universal plan in total?
How many convention goers does Uni pull away from Disney? Do people end up going to a brand new theme park next door or waste time by traveling to Disney?
If SWL becomes a large attendance booster for DHS? (which I assume will cripple AK/Epcot, or maybe even SeaWorld attendance unto new things open)
The big one, however, is SeaWorld. Their attendance has done well recently but how close are they to selling? Part of SeaWorld's problem is Uni taking away vacation days and I assume that with a new 3rd dry park all those who had one extra day for SeaWorld will go to the new park.

MK is never really a variable only because people will visit no matter what.

 

[Andysol]

Just catching up

It's not that hard to picture Blade Runner getting a ride, but if I'm remembering correctly, didn't BR-2049 bomb at the box office?

Didn’t do great. And it was a fantastic movie with the “it” Hollywood guy in Gosling and Harrison ford to boot. No reason it shouldn’t have done well.
Except people don’t really like sci fi.
They like what they think is sci fi- a bunch of superheroes, robots, or other cgi in Michael bay type action scenes.

That's so much rock work.

If universal has shown us anything these last three years is they aren’t afraid of Rockwork. Kong. And 200 feet of rockwork in VB.

What kind of park layout would you rather?

The hub and spoke. Walt created it and it’s absolutely brilliant. Not a better park layout in existence.

...which puts a lot of acreage to waste. Look at how big the IOA Lagoon is and it serves pretty much no purpose.

Hey now, it fills up popeye every day.

 

[Galaxy Defender]

Speaking of attendance I think Uni's ideal plan is to have the parks have the same amount of attendance (or just off by a little). They don't want a WDW situation in which MK has 20 mil guests while the other 3 parks have half of that. I think the goal for Universal is to balance out parks in terms of attendance, which is why we have SNW moving to the new park. SNW + HP at USF will be a nightmare to have guests go to a new park, even if they get LOTR it's still not enough (gotta bring in the family market).

All 3 (eventually) dry parks can have identical attendance if:
USF: HP + Pokemon
IOA: HP + Zelda at LC
3rd Gate: LOTR + SNW MARIO... whatever other IPs they decide which won't really change the outcome

I can see them all averaging 15-20 million by 2030, considering that room capacity should be double or more than now.

The only variables that can change attendance (for better or worse) for UNI is:
Epcot: how well are the updates received?
How many value hotel rooms does Universal plan in total?
How many convention goers does Uni pull away from Disney? Do people end up going to a brand new theme park next door or waste time by traveling to Disney?
If SWL becomes a large attendance booster for DHS? (which I assume will cripple AK/Epcot, or maybe even SeaWorld attendance unto new things open)
The big one, however, is SeaWorld. Their attendance has done well recently but how close are they to selling? Part of SeaWorld's problem is Uni taking away vacation days and I assume that with a new 3rd dry park all those who had one extra day for SeaWorld will go to the new park.

MK is never really a variable only because people will visit no matter what.

One variable on Disney's end is how much they keep raising hotel rates. I have heard they have been significantly raising the rack rates on many of their hotels. With Universal coming along with great value hotels Disney might just be pricing themselves out of more and more of the market.

Another factor to look for is how many people decide to take a universal vacation and pop over to Disney for a day or two as opposed to the opposite.

If Universal can keep down the overall wait times so the people can ride more rides Universal will seem like a much better value.

 

[JungleSkip]

There is a level of world building, immersion, and experiences in Pokémon that crosses way more generational gaps than Mario.

As someone who has played all the Pokémon games...lol come on

 

[quinnmac000]

As someone who has played all the Pokémon games...lol come on

Hey You Pikachu, Pokémon Channel, Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, Pokémon Snap, Pokemon Ranger, Pokémon Rumble, Pokémon Battle Revolution, Pokken Tournament, Pokémon Coliseum, Pokémon Gale of Darkness, my favorite spinoff Detective Pikachu and my second favorite Pokémon Conquest, and all the main series game appeal to different audiences and build into the world of Pokémon. Add in all the tv shows which have ranged from adventure to now slice of life with the Sun and Moon show being less about battling and more about friendship...the world of Pokémon has expanded again. We don't know have a full map of how all the mushroom kingdom looks like to include the tracks seen in Mario Kart.

 

[captainmoch]

Hey You Pikachu, Pokémon Channel, Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, Pokémon Snap, Pokemon Ranger, Pokémon Rumble, Pokémon Battle Revolution, Pokken Tournament, Pokémon Coliseum, Pokémon Gale of Darkness, my favorite spinoff Detective Pikachu and my second favorite Pokémon Conquest, and all the main series game appeal to different audiences and build into the world of Pokémon. Add in all the tv shows which have ranged from adventure to now slice of life with the Sun and Moon show being less about battling and more about friendship...the world of Pokémon has expanded again. We don't know have a full map of how all the mushroom kingdom looks like to include the tracks seen in Mario Kart.

The Mario series, including all of its spinoffs = 528 million units.
The Pokemon series, including all of its spinoffs = 300 million units.

Not to mention Mario has been around 12 years longer than Pokemon, has MUCH wider appeal when it comes to older folks (Pokemon is hugely popular among 20-somethings, teenagers, and kids... not so much 30s+ adults), and has much more iconic imagery. (Peach's Castle, Toad Houses, Question Mark blocks, bricks, Piranha Plants, Bowser's Castle, DK Jungle, all in comparison to Pokemon which has... Pokemon Centers, and pretty much just that)

Don't get me wrong, Pokemon would be absolutely massive if added to a Universal park. It'd consistently be Hogsmeade/Diagon Alley-level busy. But IMO you're kidding yourself if you think Mario wouldn't make a bigger splash than Pokemon in the theme park scene, especially when it comes to marketing a 3rd gate.

 

[Mike S]

Don't waste your time trying to use logic or numbers in this thread. Certain people are locked on what what they want and will not have any rational discussion that deviates from their dream scenario.

 

[fryoj]

You ever find a source for those merch numbers you were so proud of or you just going to keep throwing insults?

 

[zg44]

It's not about game sales or merchandise sales. Merchandise sales favor Pokemon, whereas game sales favor Mario. But those are completely beside the point here.

It's not about whether the lands will be popular or move merchandise; both will be packed all day and both will be highly profitable. That shouldn't be a concern.

The sole issue here is that most of the general public is more likely to see Mario's Super Nintendo World as the main Nintendo land and will plan their vacations accordingly. Once you accept that, you realize that Mario's SNW is likely to be a better driver of attendance as the flagship/headliner of the 3rd dry park.

That's the only reason why Universal executives would move Mario's SNW to the 3rd dry park.

Don't over-complicate the issue; they're concerned about people that book 7 day vacations to Orlando and might decide just to visit USF/IoA without adding the 3rd dry park to their itinerary if they think they'll get the main Nintendo land in USF; they want people to give a half their vacation to UOR, not just 2 days.

 

[nickwilde]

I can see them all averaging 15-20 million by 2030

There's no way IOA or USF do Magic Kingdom numbers without a massive redesign... 20 million /yr needs a massive hub-and-spoke layout with lots of people eaters, lots of dining, shopping, and sitting areas, etc.

I don't follow this park stuff super close but from a quick google, it sounds like IOA and USF have a max capacity in the 35-50k range (35k was from a forum post in 2010 on IOA's max capacity), while MK and Epcot can handle 100k+

In order to do 20 million / year, you'd need to average 50k guests/day. For MK, this is doable since it's only half max capacity, though it still gets mad crowded and shuts during busy seasons

I expect this new park will be better designed to handle the hordes and will have a lot of people eaters / other smart attractions to draw massive crowds. But I don't think the current parks can handle a much larger influx of people.

 

[captainmoch]

Jesus Christ, this forum has become so dang aggressive lately. I remember when this place was one of the most chill theme park forums out there. :bolt:

 

[DisneyDoof]

There's no way IOA or USF do Magic Kingdom numbers without a massive redesign... 20 million /yr needs a massive hub-and-spoke layout with lots of people eaters, lots of dining, shopping, and sitting areas, etc.

I don't follow this park stuff super close but from a quick google, it sounds like IOA and USF have a max capacity in the 35-50k range (35k was from a forum post in 2010 on IOA's max capacity), while MK and Epcot can handle 100k+

In order to do 20 million / year, you'd need to average 50k guests/day. For MK, this is doable since it's only half max capacity, though it still gets mad crowded and shuts during busy seasons

I expect this new park will be better designed to handle the hordes and will have a lot of people eaters / other smart attractions to draw massive crowds. But I don't think the current parks can handle a much larger influx of people.

Totally agree, what Universal really needs is a higher amount of table service restaurants in their parks as well.

 

[zg44]

Jesus Christ, this forum has become so dang aggressive lately. I remember when this place was one of the most chill theme park forums out there. :bolt:

Yeah, I didn't mean my comment to be aggressive towards you btw. I just want to simplify the discussion so that everybody understands this is not about Pokemon versus Mario as a successful theme park attraction. It's just about which will be a better headliner for an entirely new park.

Things will calm down soon hopefully; I think the reality of Universal getting the lawsuit and land purchases out of the way is that it means people want to see shovels into ground, especially with Disney on a building spree.

So we're left to endlessly debate where things will or should go instead of what is actually being built; once we get past the next couple of months (I assume the permits for Mario -> KZ expires this year), things will become clear and we can move on...

 

[Mike S]

You ever find a source for those merch numbers you were so proud of or you just going to keep throwing insults?

You threw the first stone bucko. I already said Nintendo doesn’t provide numbers but in my experience I’ve seen plenty of t shirts out there. It’s a high merch seller. Certainly more than anything not Mario and Pokémon. Zelda will make a good land. Deal with it.

Edit: another great indicator for UC wanting a full Zelda land is that when everything was going to KidZone Zelda was going to be the third big sub area. Pokémon, the obviously bigger franchise, was getting one single building. If plans changed dramatically to split everything up into separate lands Zelda being one of them is blatantly obvious.

Yeah, I didn't mean my comment to be aggressive towards you btw. I just want to simplify the discussion so that everybody understands this is not about Pokemon versus Mario as a successful theme park attraction. It's just about which will be a better headliner for an entirely new park.

Things will calm down soon hopefully; I think the reality of Universal getting the lawsuit and land purchases out of the way is that it means people want to see shovels into ground, especially with Disney on a building spree.

So we're left to endlessly debate where things will or should go instead of what is actually being built; once we get past the next couple of months (I assume the permits for Mario -> KZ expires this year), things will become clear and we can move on...

I’m hoping we get news soon. I can’t stand the silence anymore. Maybe next week during Nintendo’s investor call.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

Not every addition needs to sell merch, food, and drinks. Attractions or IPs can stand on their own or complement each other in a general land.

 

[Nick]

Not every addition needs to sell merch, food, and drinks. Attractions or IPs can stand on their own or complement each other in a general land.

As a matter of fact, most IPs won't have specific merch, food or drinks that will be amazing fits in a theme park. Potter was a gold mine because JK Rowling did incredible world-building in the books.

Most IPs aren't like that though. Just look at Star Wars. Up there with Potter as one of the biggest franchises of all-time and they had to create Batuu to make it happen, and there's still nothing besides Blue Milk that stands out from the films as a F&B item.

 

[quinnmac000]

As a matter of fact, most IPs won't have specific merch, food or drinks that will be amazing fits in a theme park. Potter was a gold mine because JK Rowling did incredible world-building in the books.

Most IPs aren't like that though. Just look at Star Wars. Up there with Potter as one of the biggest franchises of all-time and they had to create Batuu to make it happen, and there's still nothing besides Blue Milk that stands out from the films as a F&B item.

Instant bread from TFA.

 

[Alicia]

Instant bread from TFA.

Sorry, that’s only worth one quarter portion.

 

[Nick]

Instant bread from TFA.

If they are going to do this (and i'm sure they will), it needs to be convincing though.

Also, i'm pretty sure I remember Rey mentioning how she doesn't like the bread at one point.

 

[Mike S]

Not every addition needs to sell merch, food, and drinks. Attractions or IPs can stand on their own or complement each other in a general land.

Zelda would be a perfect compliment because it caters directly to Universal’s existing core demographic while also bringing in new fans because it’s a Nintendo property. The fact it can be a huge merch seller with pretty much any item and/or weapon from the games and have great food and drink from potions to Milk (alcoholic Chateau Romani anyone?) and all the potential recipes in BotW as well is a bonus