Westworld

[Andysol]

You know the most fascinating thing about this show?

I'm watching it as two timelines while others are watching it as one and we are all getting completely different (and fascinating) stories. If it was one timeline, tonight's episode brought up direct conflict between MIB and William when

Spoiler

they mention Westworld losing money and possibly buying it. MIB is clearly a majority shareholder. So while the one timeline people are seeing it as "William/Logan and MIB are both wanting to own the park" the two timeline people are seeing it as "William saved the park 30 years ago"

Really neat stuff from a perspective stance. I'm envious of the one timeline people because they'll get to rewatch and see a completely different show

 

[Andysol]

Sorry for dominating this thread this morning. Just watched it so my brain is going full speed. Here is a summary of my new theory. If you didn't like knowing the previous one- don't read this- as I think this will actually pan out much like the previous theory.

Spoiler

3 Timeline Theory Breakdown

1- Arnold Timeline
2- William Timeline
3- MiB Timeline

In Arnold's Timeline is where we see Arnold, played by Jeffrey Wright, planting the seeds in Deloreses head to destroy Westworld during their 1v1 interviews 34 years from "present". This includes making her have questions of her existence like Alice in Wonderland as well as telling her about the Maze. This is also the same timeline we are seeing in Delores' flashbacks during Williams timeline (of the church in its entirety).

In Williams Timeline there is no Arnold or Bernard or a young ford for that matter. Only the voices in Delores' head. In this timeline we are seeing 6 years after Arnold's death where we are seeing Arnold's seeds come to fruition to destroy the park. This, as we know, will fail, and become the big incident. William will play a role here, and eventually become the man in black.

In MiBs Timeline, the present, we see Bernard, an exact clone of Arnold with Arnold's backstory of a dead child. We see the MiB, now seeming to finish he and Delores' work from 28 years prior. And we see Ford, who in creating Reveres/memories, for reasons we have yet to discover, has replanted those seeds in Delores' head.

1st timeline was the plans to destroy the park
2nd timeline was the failed attempt
Will the 3rd Timeline be the one that finally succeeds, 30 years later?

 

[Cschaaf]

Maybe my opinion will change upon a second watch (the last one did), but I didn't really like this one. Much of the dialog was lame - beating us over the head with things - like Delores talking out loud to thin air. And the orgy scenes were rediculous.

With each episode I am less impressed with ERW's performance. I think it's the accent; it's terrible. The more lines she gets, the more distracting it is. YMMV.

My random thoughts

Spoiler

What's with the satellite implant thing. Why is it so BIG? That thing would only fit in someone the size of the woodcutter. We are to assume this is set far enough into the future that they can create androids that are so similar to humans that no one can tell the difference, yet this sat transmitter is a brick dongle?

They really wanted us to suspend a lot of disbelief this episode.

How was the MiB able to pull Lawrence up like that just using a rope? He must have super strength - the friction of the rope would make Lawrence even heavier.

But that's more believable than the blood transfusion. Unless Teddy has a "Pour blood in here" port on his side, I'm not sure how that would be accomplished.

I guess they tried to give us the background in the pilot when the MiB drained Kissy. There was no other reason for that scene. At the time, it led us to believe that MiB was sadistic, but I don't think he really is.

It isn't even necrophilia- its more like having sex with a blow up doll. They aren't real, so it can't be necrophilia. Again, blurring the line of what makes "real, alive and dead".

Ok- so my LONG take including a way out there new theory.

Spoiler

It's clearly two time lines at this point. It's improbable, if not impossible to debate at this point. As if the two logos wasn't enough evidence- old one with William getting on train as well as lab coats in flash back scene and new one with old ford.
El Lazo/Lawrence should be the final proof we need, right? Not to mention MIB stating they had met before- duh, as El Lazo.

Some interesting things regarding that theory- we now know William and Logan are interested in purchasing Westworld and that it is "hemoraging cash". We know the MiB talks about Teddy being more real as being more "cost effective". The "reveal" it is two timelines will likely be William "opening up" a host and it having thousands of parts like MIB mentioned. On a side note: Cost cutting? What theme park would do that?



We know Delores has heard Arnold's voice before, and that's likely who we hear now. Although, in the day of the dead scene, ford is the voice she heard to tell her to sleep, and she fell back. Now, this took place in the "past", then we get an interview with "present" Ford. I, once again, don't believe these "interviews" are of a linear timeline.
In that conversation, we know Arnold wanted to have her destroy Westworld (or, by "this place", the control room/HQ). Then we hear her talk to herself or Arnold again saying "I didn't tell him anything". She's completely aware and sentient at this point as is Maive. Maive is wonderful, isn't she?



Side ramblings:

Delores says she hasn't seen Arnold in 34 years (when he died)- which means we have 6 years between Arnold's death and the major incident.
William and Logan also speak of Arnold's death as if its somewhat recent in the past few years (but not 34). Their timeline will assuredly be the "incident".

Blood transfusions work. Cool

Are most technicians at control hosts? When someone like Felix tries to "go outside of the box" with his bird tinkering, he is immediately redirected by another employee to stay in his current role, much like Westworld. Or, is this just symbolism that humans and hosts aren't too far apart in their desires of wanting more while others keep them down. Hmm...



And now for my insane theory of the week.

Bernard is not only a host. Bernard is Arnold. And not just the consciousness of Arnold like some may have guessed, but an exact physical clone of Arnold.
Bernard has no knowledge of Arnold but even an outsider like Logan does from 30 years ago?
We see a photo of Arnold in episode 3 I believe- it clearly isn't Bernard. But the precedent is already set that hosts see what they are programmed to see. Delores saw the picture of the lady in Times Square and said she saw nothing weird about it. Almost like her dad was crazy. So when Bernard sees the pic, is it because he IS Arnold? We already saw the Delos terms and services which allows cloning of your likeness even using your DNA. Why would they put that in there if it doesn't come up in the show.
In episode one when Abernathy (Delores' dad) says he wants to meet his maker, Ford looks at Bernard and says "you're in luck". Was ford talking about himself. Or about Bernard? Or... both? Then ford asks what he'd say to his maker and Abernathy responds about taking his mechanical dirty hand and getting revenge. Yikes.
The best part about this theory is- if he's an exact clone of Arnold- but would look 34ish during any of these interactions. So these interviews with Delores or Maive could be 34 years ago. Was his Skype with his wife in the present or the past? And knowing that Logan/Williams timeline is AFTER Arnold's death, if those interviews and phone call were the past, that would actually mean we could be in THREE timelines. Mind F, right?
Delores is clothes with Arnold/Bernard, naked with Ford. Ford freaked out about someone covering up a host before- is it because Arnold used to do the same as we're currently seeing?
The maze is Arnold's idea, we learned that tonight. Yet Bernard is the one who brings it up to Delores. Wouldn't it make more sense that Arnold planted that seed?
So why does Ford clone Arnold? He said he wasn't "nostalgic" while he was about to tear down the hotel with that giant machine. Yet he still likes to recount stories with old bill and maybe, just maybe he missed his friend and their friendly debates.

I don't necessarily believe this, but I'm going to be looking out for it as it's plausible.
Hey- the two timeline thing was too easy so now I'm reaching and saying three

Spoiler

I am still a multi-timeline denier, but only because I don't want there to be multiple timelines. But I can come up with no strong arguments against there being multiple timelines at this point.

The only thing I can think to explain El Lazo (The Loop in Spanish)/Lawrence thing:
Lawrence's loop ended when the MiB drained him. We don't see El Lazo until the next day - giving them time to reset his loop at El Lazo back in Orgytown.

However, that doesn't explain why, upon returning to Orgytown, someone doesn't tell them that El Lazo is gone - because he would have been with MiB. I'm sure there could be an explaination if they wanted to find one - he was out on a mission or something, but it's pretty far fetched.

As far as meeting before, I think it's a safe guess that the MiB has met almost all of the hosts by this point.

I just heard the exact 3 timeline theory, almost word for word, on a Westworld podcast - and it does seem plausible.

I really hate the idea of 2 timelines, let alone 3. If they are going down that path, it's going to be very difficult for them to keep them all straight and logical. Also, they need to tell us very soon - they are rapidly losing any payoff that might exist by holding that information from us at this point.

And I tend to think the only payoff of multiple timelines is for the show runners to say, "Look! We tricked you! HaHa!"

I still don't see how they physically morph Jimmie Simpson (William) into Ed Harris (MiB). A more plausible physical shift would be Ben Barnes (Logan) to Ed Harris - but that doesn't seem to fit the narrative they are after - which I think is now:

William starts at 100% white hat. Now he's starting to grey. We've seen him do 'bad' things, but only to keep the 'game' from doing bad, or worse, things. He's not evil, not malicious, just feels that the game isn't headed in the right direction.

Eventually, he turns to black hat, but only in the sense of the game. I don't think his motives change - I think he's still a white hat in his heart. He's still the same guy, but is more driven to stop the game from doing bad things. If that means doing worse things to stop the game, then that's what he'll do - sounds like MiB to me.

This whole show probably ends with everyone's loop starting back where we came in to the pilot.

 

[Andysol]

My thoughts in bold

My random thoughts.

Spoiler

What's with the satellite implant thing. Why is it so BIG? That thing would only fit in someone the size of the woodcutter. We are to assume this is set far enough into the future that they can create androids that are so similar to humans that no one can tell the difference, yet this sat transmitter is a brick dongle?
If this takes place on another planet, it would be feasible if it's not someone local and it needs to be transmitted. That's all I could think of.


How was the MiB able to pull Lawrence up like that just using a rope? He must have super strength - the friction of the rope would make Lawrence even heavier.
Right. Hah

But that's more believable than the blood transfusion. Unless Teddy has a "Pour blood in here" port on his side, I'm not sure how that would be accomplished.
True

I guess they tried to give us the background in the pilot when the MiB drained Kissy. There was no other reason for that scene. At the time, it led us to believe that MiB was sadistic, but I don't think he really is.
Explain this more. Was he the card dealer? I don't really remember this scene.

Spoiler

The only thing I can think to explain El Lazo (The Loop in Spanish)/Lawrence thing:
Lawrence's loop ended when the MiB drained him. We don't see El Lazo until the next day - giving them time to reset his loop at El Lazo back in Orgytown.
No way he gets retrieved cleaned and serviced in time.

I just heard the exact 3 timeline theory, almost word for word, on a Westworld podcast - and it does seem plausible.
What is the podcast? I follow a Reddit thread that has been speculating Bernard being Arnold's conciousness for a while but not a clone.

I really hate the idea of 2 timelines, let alone 3. If they are going down that path, it's going to be very difficult for them to keep them all straight and logical. Also, they need to tell us very soon - they are rapidly losing any payoff that might exist by holding that information from us at this point.

And I tend to think the only payoff of multiple timelines is for the show runners to say, "Look! We tricked you! HaHa!"

I still don't see how they physically morph Jimmie Simpson (William) into Ed Harris (MiB). A more plausible physical shift would be Ben Barnes (Logan) to Ed Harris - but that doesn't seem to fit the narrative they are after - which I think is now:

William starts at 100% white hat. Now he's starting to grey. We've seen him do 'bad' things, but only to keep the 'game' from doing bad, or worse, things. He's not evil, not malicious, just feels that the game isn't headed in the right direction.

Eventually, he turns to black hat, but only in the sense of the game. I don't think his motives change - I think he's still a white hat in his heart. He's still the same guy, but is more driven to stop the game from doing bad things. If that means doing worse things to stop the game, then that's what he'll do - sounds like MiB to me.

This whole show probably ends with everyone's loop starting back where we came in to the pilot.
I suppose. I'm loving it right now. The speculation is just as fun as the show for me. But I can see how most would dislike it.

 

[Cschaaf]

Trying to figure out the best way to piece together our comments... great conversation.

My thoughts in bold

Spoiler

I guess they tried to give us the background in the pilot when the MiB drained Kissy. There was no other reason for that scene. At the time, it led us to believe that MiB was sadistic, but I don't think he really is.
Explain this more. Was he the card dealer? I don't really remember this scene.

Yes, Kissie (sp?) was the card dealer. MiB drug him out to the cliff and drained his blood and said that he drained exactly enough to keep him alive. A minute later and he was killing and scaliping him. Not sure why he had to drain his blood if he was able to capture him, drag him to the middle of nowhere, and scalp him for the map.

I suppose he did question him and learn of Lawrence, so maybe that's why he drained him? I think it also showed us that he may have tried this story several times before he got the blood draining right??

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The only thing I can think to explain El Lazo (The Loop in Spanish)/Lawrence thing:
Lawrence's loop ended when the MiB drained him. We don't see El Lazo until the next day - giving them time to reset his loop at El Lazo back in Orgytown.
No way he gets retrieved cleaned and serviced in time.

I don't know. I think they showed us that they can clean pretty quickly - even too quickly. I don't think that's the piece that's holding the theory back. He wasn't mangled so it should be a simple skin repair and pump him back up.

The bigger hole is - it doesn't appear that El Lazo was missing from his Orgytown loop. It's possible there are 2 different versions, like we saw 2 Dolores', but I don't think they would go that route. I think Dolores was just having visions of a former loop.

Having 2 versions of the same host in at different points in the park would be a foolish, and totally unnecessary, move by the Westworld techs. They can make anything they want, why make 2 of the same thing to be used in parallel? (Note that 'foolish and unneccessary' might be EXACTLY how they operate lol)

I suppose another 'quick turn around' theory could be that they have multiple versions of key hosts in storage to facilitate a quick turnaround if they need to. Seems like Teddy would be a good candidate for that. lol

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I just heard the exact 3 timeline theory, almost word for word, on a Westworld podcast - and it does seem plausible.
What is the podcast? I follow a Reddit thread that has been speculating Bernard being Arnold's conciousness for a while but not a clone.

I think it was Decoding Westworld. I listen to a few different ones (I'll list them outside of spoilers for anyone else interested).

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This whole show probably ends with everyone's loop starting back where we came in to the pilot.
I suppose. I'm loving it right now. The speculation is just as fun as the show for me. But I can see how most would dislike it.

Agreed! I'm still enjoying the show, but have become a bit guarded in my enjoyment.

For anyone interested, there are seemigly hundreds of Westworld podcasts out there. I've tried a bunch (I have a long commute) and have narrowed to a few:

• Westworld - Shat on TV Podcasts
• Decoding Westworld - David Chen and Joanna Robinson
• Westworld - Coffee Klatch Crew

Those are probably my favorite 3, then I have a few more if I haven't had enough theory talk

• The Westworld Podcast
• Westworld the Podcast

Some of them do quick recaps (Shat on TV and Westworld the Podcast come to mind) early in the week, then have longer, deep dives later.

 

[Teebin]

I guess I should be careful what I wish for... :stun:

 

[LieutLaww]

Obviously Spoilers to anyone who hasn't seen the latest episode

 

[Andysol]

Spoiler

It's possible there are 2 different versions, like we saw 2 Dolores', but I don't think they would go that route. I think Dolores was just having visions of a former loop.

Having 2 versions of the same host in at different points in the park would be a foolish, and totally unnecessary, move by the Westworld techs. They can make anything they want, why make 2 of the same thing to be used in parallel? (Note that 'foolish and unneccessary' might be EXACTLY how they operate lol)

Spoiler

Yes, I agree there is no need for 2 of the same thing in parallel- in fact, that's not just foolish and unnecessary, but costly. If immersion is their strong suit- that would clearly not be immersive. I agree with you, two timelines all but confirmed.
Something to note is that they broke from production during the middle of the season, speculated to be after episode 4- then finalized exactly where they wanted to be and go with it, and filmed 5-10. El Lazo is likely the big wink to it's audience to say "You're right, its two timelines". Also interesting to note that HBO's president last week stated that many fan theories are getting "close" to figuring it out. Not figuring it out yet, apparently. Could that be where 2 timelines is "close", or Bernard being just a host or just Arnold's consciousness is "close"?

As for the 2 different Delores' I agree- it was just a vision. But what is weird, is would it be the vision of a former loop? The lady at the table with the Taro Cards was a different person, then Delores, then no one. The Delores' in the parade was clearly making eye contact with her- so hard for that to be a previous loop. Also, how would Delores' even end up in that town and in that situation without Logan/William. I mean, that was deviating from her loop such an extreme amount, that it's unlikely it was a previous trek she took.
Those "visions" were the biggest question marks I had over my head that whole episode. That and who is trying to smuggle info.


In completely other news:
Is the MiB really that bad of a guy? He comes off as vile and terrible in episode 1- a definite antagonist, but is Ford really the principle antagonist here? I would say yes.
We never see MiB rape Delores. We don't see his full encounter at all, really. Just killing Teddy. Does he interrogate her about the maze? Does he plant more seeds to "free" her? When she flashbacks to MiB prior to shooting the bandit in the barn scene- is that her remembering what MiB told her the night (or few nights) before?
I think we see William transition from "white" to "black", but more as a "too nice doormat" to someone who stands up for himself and what he believes is right. Like letting Logan die/get attacked. I mean, should we really stand up for a guy like Logan? Of course not- that doesn't make you "not white hat" at heart.
I think MiB and William are way more "grey" than either of their hats tend to give off. And I have a feeling we are going to start seeing MiB become more of a protagonist as we move forward. It's, as usual, a battle of good and evil. And as I mentioned before the allusions of the Devil and MiB both wanting the hosts (and humanity in the Devil's case) to experience pain, memories, evil, etc and thats what makes them "real".

 

[Mr. EPCOT]

Spoiler

You said, "People come here to change the story of their lives." I imagined a story where I didn't have to be the damsel.

Goosebumps.

 

[rhino4evr]

ok, so are the multiple time lines thing really confirmed, or is it just fans speculating, because I'm not really buying all this.

 

[Andysol]

ok, so are the multiple time lines thing really confirmed, or is it just fans speculating, because I'm not really buying all this.

Fan speculation. But it can't be disproven. Although neither can Ford being an alien spider from Neptune either.

 

[Mr. EPCOT]

I really doubt it's on another planet if they're talking about Earth constellations.

 

[rhino4evr]

Fan speculation. But it can't be disproven. Although neither can Ford being an alien spider from Neptune either.

This is the problem with "Internet Theories". A lot of people get worked up on such convoluted theories, that when the truth finally is revealed they are let down by the simplicity. Please see Battlestar Galactica and True Detective Season 1.

I just cant get wrapped up in speculation.

 

[Andysol]

This is the problem with "Internet Theories". A lot of people get worked up on such convoluted theories, that when the truth finally is revealed they are let down by the simplicity. Please see Battlestar Galactica and True Detective Season 1.

I just cant get wrapped up in speculation.

What was the speculation on True Detective- loved that show


Although the different Westworld logos are really pretty telling. And the fact that HBO changed the screencap to the new logo where it was the old one in the show is also extremely telling.

 

[Cschaaf]

The Decoding Westworld podcast did an interview with the episode 4 director - one quick note:

Spoiler

He said he didn't know if there were multiple timelines or not. That seems like it would be important for a director to know. Or even actors.

It makes you think - how much does Jeffery Ross even know about his character? Is he a host? Is he not? Would/should he play it differently for either scenario?

For ERW, it might not matter - unless we go back to the timeline when she was a human that influenced the creation of the Dolores host character (which I think is likely true)

What about Jimmie Simpson and Ed Harris? If they are playing the same person separated by 30 years, should they know that? Would the director build in some kind of parallel in their characters? Or, is the 30 year difference, and all that's happened in it, enough to totally change the person that it wouldn't matter?

Spoiler

Yes, I agree there is no need for 2 of the same thing in parallel- in fact, that's not just foolish and unnecessary, but costly. If immersion is their strong suit- that would clearly not be immersive. I agree with you, two timelines all but confirmed.
Something to note is that they broke from production during the middle of the season, speculated to be after episode 4- then finalized exactly where they wanted to be and go with it, and filmed 5-10. El Lazo is likely the big wink to it's audience to say "You're right, its two timelines". Also interesting to note that HBO's president last week stated that many fan theories are getting "close" to figuring it out. Not figuring it out yet, apparently. Could that be where 2 timelines is "close", or Bernard being just a host or just Arnold's consciousness is "close"?

If there are multiple timelines, I don't think they thought people would figure that out so fast. It loses it's shock value if the audience figures it all out weeks before you are ready to unveil it. At this point, it would be much more of a shock if William runs into MiB in the next episode.

There was also a very large gap between the pilot and E2 - I think it was a year - while they reworked the story.

As for the 2 different Delores' I agree- it was just a vision. But what is weird, is would it be the vision of a former loop? The lady at the table with the Taro Cards was a different person, then Delores, then no one. The Delores' in the parade was clearly making eye contact with her- so hard for that to be a previous loop. Also, how would Delores' even end up in that town and in that situation without Logan/William. I mean, that was deviating from her loop such an extreme amount, that it's unlikely it was a previous trek she took.
Those "visions" were the biggest question marks I had over my head that whole episode. That and who is trying to smuggle info.
Good points about Delores' visions.

In completely other news:
Is the MiB really that bad of a guy? He comes off as vile and terrible in episode 1- a definite antagonist, but is Ford really the principle antagonist here? I would say yes.
We never see MiB rape Delores. We don't see his full encounter at all, really. Just killing Teddy. Does he interrogate her about the maze? Does he plant more seeds to "free" her? When she flashbacks to MiB prior to shooting the bandit in the barn scene- is that her remembering what MiB told her the night (or few nights) before? Yeah, I think the MiB was made to look so evil in Ep1 to throw us off. I never thought he raped her, because I thought HBO would absolutely want to show us if he did. I don't think they could have resisted lol

Also, they may have totally changed the MiB story in that rework between E1 and E2. In some ways, it might make sense to really ignore anything thrown at us in the pilot.

I think we see William transition from "white" to "black", but more as a "too nice doormat" to someone who stands up for himself and what he believes is right. Like letting Logan die/get attacked. I mean, should we really stand up for a guy like Logan? Of course not- that doesn't make you "not white hat" at heart. If the William = MIB stuff is true, it's likely something bad happens to both Dolores and Logan to set the transition in motion.

I think MiB and William are way more "grey" than either of their hats tend to give off. And I have a feeling we are going to start seeing MiB become more of a protagonist as we move forward. It's, as usual, a battle of good and evil. And as I mentioned before the allusions of the Devil and MiB both wanting the hosts (and humanity in the Devil's case) to experience pain, memories, evil, etc and thats what makes them "real".

This is the problem with "Internet Theories". A lot of people get worked up on such convoluted theories, that when the truth finally is revealed they are let down by the simplicity. Please see Battlestar Galactica and True Detective Season 1.

I just cant get wrapped up in speculation.

I get that. Right now, I am enjoying the speculation.

That's the line where it gets dangerous - if you start to buy heavily into a theory, so much so, that if it doesn't happen that way you end up disappointed.

Fan theories in and of themselves are fine... just don't get so invested in one that it would ruin any other outcome. It's highly unlikely that any single theory is 100% correct. It's even unlikely that, if you only took all of the corrrect pieces from each fan theory and put them together that we would total 100%.

 

[rhino4evr]

What was the speculation on True Detective- loved that show


Although the different Westworld logos are really pretty telling. And the fact that HBO changed the screencap to the new logo where it was the old one in the show is also extremely telling.

I don't quite remember now, but I do recall a lot of people obsessing over all the literary references, and a lot of people thought that the wife or Woody or another one of the main characters was the murderer, and they had all this stuff suggesting that he was an actual demon or something. in the end it turned out to be a much simpler conclusion. I remember a lot of folks on the internet being upset by it.

 

[rhino4evr]

So I just read Alan Sepinwall's review, and I can see where the "theory" is coming from. It makes sense I guess, and it does explain quite a few head scratchers. that being said, I'm kind of annoyed I looked it up in the first place. I think im going to avoid internet speculation gossip for the rest of the show.

 

[Teebin]

You know, to hear the Ed Harris character talk reminds me of older guys that like fixing up cars. They cannot do a thing with modern computer based cars, so they buy earlier models just for the fun of fixing them up; tinkering with them.

 

[Teebin]

And why does Ford journey to the basements to chat with that antiquated robot over again? Nostalgia only?

 

[foodstampsFTW]

I think you guys should slow it way down on speculation. I have no idea why you would want to obsess on trying to figure out what will happen, youre just gonna set yourself up for disappointment, just go for the ride.